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Old 6th October 2012, 11:02 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
Mainly one room, but dipoles located at the long wall and the short wall. Measured results were different of course, but the conclusion the same for both installments. You find measurements and a discussion (in German) of the short wall version at Dipole und Kontrolle der Raummoden, Lautsprecher - HIFI-FORUM
Thanks Rudolf. Did you also test monopoles? That room looks really ugly (acoustically). Looks like John's right and the solution is not in the source type.

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[...] the idea that you can plot a dipole woofer down anywhere and get superior bass because it excites fewer modes just doesn't bear out.

Last edited by markus76; 6th October 2012 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 6th October 2012, 11:53 AM   #212
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Being able to adjust mode coupling is one of the biggest advantages of a dipole but it's not utilized.
I think the rotation is not the biggest advantage but the biggest advantage is the cleaner impulse response dipole produces in a small room within the first 100-200 ms.

For the input of this:
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Dipole response:
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Monopole response:
Click the image to open in full size.




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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Looks like John's right and the solution is not in the source type.
Source type is the biggest effecting factor, but you must use the relevant metrics to realise this.


Since, if you take old fashioned long time window FFT the difference between monopole and dipole gets smaller. In that case they are very different but it's getting harder to decide which one is better.
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Old 6th October 2012, 12:08 PM   #213
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Elias,

Is your software available anywhere? If I had it and could run it I might be interested in reconstructing my CRAW woofer to look at all three: Monopoles, dipoles and cardioid.
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Old 6th October 2012, 12:20 PM   #214
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Did you also test monopoles?
No. Haven't had a monopole woofer for years. But since you have both types at hand now, we finally can rely on your test skills
Quote:
That room looks really ugly (acoustically).
In fact it is ugly looking - but not acoustically With better positioning of speakers and listener in the room (a la john k...) the response is a lot better now.
Quote:
Looks like John's right and the solution is not in the source type.
Right and wrong imho. Of course you can make a dipole out of two monopoles with inverse phase anytime. In that regard source type doesn't matter. But ...
there have been quite some people asking me for my opinion/advice WRT a dipol bass solution in their room. If they were already pleased with their monopole solution and just wanted to satisfy their curiosity about dipoles, final reactions where mostly like this: "Now I see, what this fuss is all about, but I don't really see enough reason to change what I already have."
But there was another group of people who had moved their monopole (sub)woofers or speakers to every possible position in the room and never found a satisfying sound. Without any exception those people were incredibly happy about the change, which the dipole made for them. Sometimes the solution is in the source - at least practically.

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Old 6th October 2012, 12:27 PM   #215
6.283 is offline 6.283  Germany
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Yes but my point was that it's not done.
In my case I do not feel that I have a need but haven't looked into this further.
I once had a standalone 12" H-Frame that I had been pushing throughout the room and turned it as well to check how the sound changes but I did not do measurements. Anyway, the sound did diminish noticeably at the listening position when toed in too much.


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Originally Posted by john k... View Post
Elias,

Is your software available anywhere? If I had it and could run it I might be interested in reconstructing my CRAW woofer to look at all three: Monopoles, dipoles and cardioid.
That sounds like a nice offer !

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Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
But there was another group of people who had moved their monopole (sub)woofers or speakers to every possible position in the room and never found a satisfying sound. Without any exception those people were incredibly happy about the change, which the dipole made for them.
Then you can add one to the list. That was true in my old flat.
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Old 6th October 2012, 12:47 PM   #216
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Elias,

Is your software available anywhere?
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Old 6th October 2012, 12:57 PM   #217
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No. Haven't had a monopole woofer for years. But since you have both types at hand now, we finally can rely on your test skills
How convenient, isn't it Slight delay though, my carpenter is on vacation.

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Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
In fact it is ugly looking - but not acoustically With better positioning of speakers and listener in the room (a la john k...) the response is a lot better now.
Right and wrong imho. Of course you can make a dipole out of two monopoles with inverse phase anytime. In that regard source type doesn't matter. But ...
there have been quite some people asking me for my opinion/advice WRT a dipol bass solution in their room. If they were already pleased with their monopole solution and just wanted to satisfy their curiosity about dipoles, final reactions where mostly like this: "Now I see, what this fuss is all about, but I don't really see enough reason to change what I already have."
But there was another group of people who had moved their monopole (sub)woofers or speakers to every possible position in the room and never found a satisfying sound. Without any exception those people were incredibly happy about the change, which the dipole made for them. Sometimes the solution is in the source - at least practically.

Rudolf
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What I'm after is beyond monopole/dipole but about low modal ringing and smooth frequency response.
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Old 6th October 2012, 01:25 PM   #218
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
In those cases the dipole solved the problem with the least added amount of material and man hour. Effectively the better engineering solution
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What I'm after is beyond monopole/dipole but about low modal ringing and smooth frequency response.
Yeah, finally another breakthrough brought to us from the Swiss
But honestly, every fresh look at the problem is laudable.
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Old 6th October 2012, 01:57 PM   #219
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Old 6th October 2012, 02:09 PM   #220
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So the imulse has to be in the form of a wav file? That's not too convinient. All my impulse data is in the form of text files which are generated using an MLS burst.
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