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Old 5th October 2012, 05:59 PM   #191
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Thinking out loud doesn't confuse me if it's clearly recognizable as such but you specifically quoted one of my posts which were unmistakably targeted at LF.
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Old 5th October 2012, 08:40 PM   #192
boris81 is offline boris81  United States
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Originally Posted by john k... View Post
But the idea that you can plot a dipole woofer down anywhere and get superior bass because it excites fewer modes just doesn't bear out.
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Thanks, 'completely agree. And hence the same is true with monopoles being kind of the opposite animal. Both need some thoughts where to drop them.
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John - I too completly agree
It sounds like subwoofer position and room dimensions matter the most.
There are a bunch of simple room mode calculators out there but maybe we should make a sophisticated software simulator that would tell people what is the ideal subwoofer position for their particular room.

We can start simple with a simulated SPL map of the room at various frequencies and let the user pick different monopole subwoofer positions. Ideally we would want to simulate multiple sources, different source configurations (monopole, dipole, cardioid), irregular room shapes, furniture and sound absorption.

A scaled physical model should give some insights as well. I read on Linkwitz's site that he initially picked up the 2" Aura tweeter to do room modes simulation with a small room model. During his experiments it occured to him to try the that driver as a fullrange in the Pluto speaker.
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Old 6th October 2012, 02:38 AM   #193
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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What objective metrics do you use?
Modulation transmission function.
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Old 6th October 2012, 09:41 AM   #194
6.283 is offline 6.283  Germany
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Thinking out loud doesn't confuse me if it's clearly recognizable as such but you specifically quoted one of my posts which were unmistakably targeted at LF.
A dipole is a dipole and does not change directivity at all (in theory), especially not at long wavelengths That's why I told you where it typically starts to change.
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Old 6th October 2012, 10:04 AM   #195
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A dipole is a dipole and does not change directivity at all (in theory), especially not at long wavelengths That's why I told you where it typically starts to change.
Again, the topic was LF. One can make the dipole null "point" in different directions by rotation. This shouldn't change the direct sound significantly but it will alter the way the dipole couples to modes. This can't be done with a monopole. To my knowledge there is no dipole speaker that would exploit that advantage.

P.S. No, don't rotate the whole speaker, just the LF unit.
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Old 6th October 2012, 10:24 AM   #196
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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One advantage of a dipole (and cardoid) is its variable room interaction with rotation. But then again I've never seen a speaker utilizing such an approach.
There are such speakers commercially available and they come from Finland. They have been on the market already for almost 20 years.

You sure you never seen one ?
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Old 6th October 2012, 10:24 AM   #197
breez is offline breez  Finland
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Hi,

There's at least the Gradient Revolution loudspeaker with rotatable dipole bass.

Revolution

Another point about cardioid bass. Is it not more likely to couple to maximum number of modes as it will excite both the velocity and and pressure modes? Meanwhile the dipole or monopole may be sitting in a null. I think I read this in some AES paper by Backman. Any thoughts?
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Old 6th October 2012, 10:29 AM   #198
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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I win !
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Old 6th October 2012, 10:43 AM   #199
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You sure you never seen one ?
Now I did. Great idea. I'm wondering why it's not more widespread amongst dipole users. Especially in the DIY community.
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Old 6th October 2012, 10:46 AM   #200
6.283 is offline 6.283  Germany
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Again, the topic was LF.
Again, it does not matter what the topic is as long as the radiation pattern does not change. But nevermind. Let's stop this.

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To my knowledge there is no dipole speaker that would exploit that advantage.
P.S. No, don't rotate the whole speaker, just the LF unit.
Every dipole speaker can do this where

a. The sub is "separated" from the rest
b. the sub goes up to your desired F.

To get to the Schröder F (or a little beyond) with reasonable output you might require already 2 drivers per side.
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