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Old 5th October 2012, 12:35 PM   #161
6.283 is offline 6.283  Germany
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
They are? Care to elaborate?
I think you are interpreting too much in this statement ?
Room treatment in the bass is difficult, expensive and most likely stationary.
A directional sub woofer excites different modes and to a different degree. The critical distance is greater and hence the D/R ratio, etc. etc. all resulting in a preferable reprensentation over a setup with one or two monopoles (this is what I experience anyway).
If you move, take the speakers with you.
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At times the monopole/dipole discussion gets way too dogmatic which really prevents progress.
I am not sure if the discussion makes progress stalling. I think right now there are just no better explanations. And then there is perception.
This is why I found this paper interesting and also Elias' work pointing to differences in temporal fidelity. I'll link it here again in case there are some readers not knowing it.

Monopole vs Dipole bass in small room - The battle continues - Wavelets to the rescue
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Old 5th October 2012, 12:38 PM   #162
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In a word, no.
Then I guess you're stricty speaker about dipoles? For monopoles it should make a great difference how air tight a room is.
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Old 5th October 2012, 12:39 PM   #163
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Thanks, I was not sure if you were referring to the picture 2 pages back.
Could this be a placement / room issue or did you observe that in multiple rooms ?
Yes it is certainly a room placement issue to some extent. I found some positions where the dipole and cardioid were basically identical between 20 and 100 Hz.

The reason I experimented with this was because of the paper by Backman where he claimed dipoles to be the most sensitive to positioning and cardioids the least. I was surprised by just how sensitive the dipoles were, both to position and orientation. By the time I was done building the CRAW and pushing it all over the room I pretty much came to agree with his analysis. That is not to say you can not get good bass from a dipole woofer. Quite the contrary. They can produce exceptional bass. But the idea that you can plot a dipole woofer down anywhere and get superior bass because it excites fewer modes just doesn't bear out.
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Old 5th October 2012, 12:48 PM   #164
6.283 is offline 6.283  Germany
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But the idea that you can plot a dipole woofer down anywhere and get superior bass because it excites fewer modes just doesn't bear out.
Thanks, 'completely agree. And hence the same is true with monopoles being kind of the opposite animal. Both need some thoughts where to drop them.
As a result and from a customer perspective not knowing what exactly is required, a cardio would be (is in your case) the best approach.
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Old 5th October 2012, 12:51 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by 6.283 View Post
I think you are interpreting too much in this statement ?
Room treatment in the bass is difficult, expensive and most likely stationary.
A directional sub woofer excites different modes and to a different degree. The critical distance is greater and hence the D/R ratio, etc. etc. all resulting in a preferable reprensentation over a setup with one or two monopoles (this is what I experience anyway).
If you move, take the speakers with you.
I agree that active absorption is more practical but I'm not sure which frequency range you're talking about.

The location of subs is freed from placement of the mains below 80Hz. Several solutions for modal control become feasible.

Then there's the transitional frequency range around the Schröder frequency. The woofers are located where the mains are. There are claims that dipoles would always outperform monopoles but I've yet to see conclusive data.
One advantage of a dipole (and cardoid) is its variable room interaction with rotation. But then again I've never seen a speaker utilizing such an approach.
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Old 5th October 2012, 12:53 PM   #166
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Then I guess you're stricty speaker about dipoles? For monopoles it should make a great difference how air tight a room is.
No. The question was about the NaO Mini which used a sealed box woofer. And the question was, "Did I get any feedback about the tuning." No one who build the Mini ever commented on the woofer tuning so I can not comment on how well it did or did not work in the field. It's not like there are thousands of Mini systems out there. I discontinued the Mini because Peerless stopped making the woofers and there were some QC issues with the 7" Peerless HDS mids at the time.
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Old 5th October 2012, 12:57 PM   #167
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The question was about the NaO Mini which used a sealed box woofer.
Sorry but it wasn't clear from your original post that you were talking specifically about the NaO Mini.
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Old 5th October 2012, 01:03 PM   #168
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
The woofers are located where the mains are. There are claims that dipoles would always outperform monopoles but I've yet to see conclusive data.
It very much depends on the metrics.
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Old 5th October 2012, 01:07 PM   #169
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It very much depends on the metrics.
...as always.
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Old 5th October 2012, 01:09 PM   #170
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Although dipoles outperform monopoles in a small room in most relevant metrics
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