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Old 9th June 2009, 12:40 AM   #1
Defo is offline Defo  Norway
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Default AE TD12M cheap alternative - Faital 12PR300?

Thinking of a cheap alternative to the AE TD12M, and the Faital 12PR300 looks promising. Neo magnet for cheap shipping, low Le, and high extension.

Any thoughts?
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Old 9th June 2009, 01:44 AM   #2
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Default Re: AE TD12M cheap alternative - Faital 12PR300?

Quote:
Originally posted by Defo
Thinking of a cheap alternative to the AE TD12M, and the Faital 12PR300 looks promising. Neo magnet for cheap shipping, low Le, and high extension.

Any thoughts?
These are very different drivers. (..look at the the T/S param.s.)

Frankly I can't think of single driver quite like the TD12M.

On the other-hand there actually is a cheap alternative for the TD*15*M:

http://www.eminence.com/bassguitar_s...5&SUB_CAT_ID=5
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Old 9th June 2009, 03:41 AM   #3
badman is offline badman  United States
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You call that rising response monster a substitute?!
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Old 9th June 2009, 06:20 AM   #4
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Default Re: Re: AE TD12M cheap alternative - Faital 12PR300?

Quote:
Originally posted by Defo
Thinking of a cheap alternative to the AE TD12M, and the Faital 12PR300 looks promising. Neo magnet for cheap shipping, low Le, and high extension.
While it may be possible to find a driver with similar T/S parameters, you're not going to find one "cheap" that is going to perform nearly the same. Look at the comparison with the Faital. It has no shorting rings and does not have a highly extended pole. This means high flux modulation and variance in Le with travel resulting in high distortion and vast changes in parameters with excursion.

It has a glass fiber VC former meaning all the inner heatsinking ability of the coil is removed. It has a 12.5mm long coil in an 8mm thick gap. Contrast that to our 25mm long coil in 18mm tall gap. The TD12M has literally about 5x the heatsinking area, and the entire inside of the coil is adjacent to the highly thermally conductive copper sleeve. This long gap and longer coil gives a much broader Bl curve. Even though it has this tiny short VC, the Faital still has 2x the inductance of the TD12M.

The dustcap will also have a resonance issue to deal with. This is one of the large reasons for the Lambda phase plug. The other is additional heatsinking. Finally look at the impedance curve. Even in a smoothed curve that is not at all properly scaled to tell you anything, you can see bumps at 500hz, 2Khz and 5500hz, indicating dustcap, cone, and or spider/surround resonances that haven't been properly damped.

Quote:
Originally posted by ScottG
On the other-hand there actually is a cheap alternative for the TD*15*M:

http://www.eminence.com/bassguitar_s...5&SUB_CAT_ID=5
Again, parameters are one thing. The 280hz spider resonance is a big issue. The 800hz dustcap resonance is a bigger issue. Then the 2KHz cone breakup is huge as well. Realistically you'd never want to use it past 500hz as an absolute maximum. Again, very short coil, short gap, non extended pole. It has a tiny fraction of the heat sinking ability of the TD15M. It still has nearly double the inductance with no shorting rings and will suffer from huge differences in Le with excursion and flux modulation issues.

If you're looking for something to be a drop in replacement in your box program, yes these options may model similarly. However if you're looking for an alternative to be used in a real speaker that actually exists, they won't even come close.

John
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Old 9th June 2009, 08:16 AM   #5
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Default Re: Re: Re: AE TD12M cheap alternative - Faital 12PR300?

Quote:
Originally posted by badman
You call that rising response monster a substitute?!

I believe I specified it as a: "cheap alternative". Greater limitations for its use? Absolutely. It is overall however and excellent substitute.



Quote:
Originally posted by John_E_Janowitz


Again, parameters are one thing. The 280hz spider resonance is a big issue. The 800hz dustcap resonance is a bigger issue. Then the 2KHz cone breakup is huge as well. Realistically you'd never want to use it past 500hz as an absolute maximum. Again, very short coil, short gap, non extended pole. It has a tiny fraction of the heat sinking ability of the TD15M. It still has nearly double the inductance with no shorting rings and will suffer from huge differences in Le with excursion and flux modulation issues.

If you're looking for something to be a drop in replacement in your box program, yes these options may model similarly. However if you're looking for an alternative to be used in a real speaker that actually exists, they won't even come close.

John
On the contrary for most domestic use applications it will in fact come close. Most people don't sink that much power into a such an eff. driver for long periods (in fact prob. p!ss little even with BSC), moreover most will not use a 15" driver above 500 Hz, or even 300 Hz. Its also unlikely that excursion will be an issue either for most applications.

So yes, it's an excellent substitute given reasonable domestic limitations and an average implementation.

On the other hand this doesn't detract from the excellence of the TD15M, which is IMO not only an excellent driver but also an excellent value.

So rather than getting your "feathers ruffled" and trying to "dis" a cheap alternative - try giving credit where it's due.

With some marketing savvy to such a response you'd understand (and "pitch") the driver's as *complementary*, NOT as a competitor.

Most people purchase at least 2 drivers. Those specifically looking for a cheap alternative probably can't muster the cash for 2 TD15M drivers (..and more likely not even close). But as a **"stand-by"** (provided it "fits" the design), they might be able afford the CB15. Further, it's not like they actually *want* the cheaper product, what they really want is your product - they just can't afford it at this time.

The APPROPRIATE response then is something like this:

(..std. greetings.)

I can understand the desire for the TD15M, it's not only a truly unique design capable of "x", "y", and "Z", but it's manufactured to much higher tolerances and with much better materials. It is a premium product, and unfortunately because of the premium design and manufacturing, the cost is at a modest premium.

Still, the driver is not only an excellent value when compared to its design and manufacturing expenses, it's also an excellent value when compared to other drivers priced at a premium. More traditional driver's like Focal, wholesale for more than twice the price of the TD15M while providing a measurably inferior product that is both considerably less efficient and less functional. Even "Pro" products like the best from JBL (often considered the standard in premium "pro" gear), are again less efficient and functional and are measurably inferior while still costing more.

If it's within your means, or perhaps "just out of reach", please seriously consider waiting until you can reasonably afford the purchase of a pair TD15M's. It really is that rare breed of product that's not only *more* than worth it's price - but even worth waiting for until it can be purchased.

If however you can't possibly afford a pair of TD15M's at (or anywhere near) this time, perhaps consider the Eminence CB15. While it is inferior in many respects, it *may* provide an acceptable compromise until you are able to purchase a pair of TD15M's. Note limitations "X", "Y", and "Z" for the Eminence driver. If you can work with these limitations then you will be able to latter replace the driver with the TD15M without any changes to the design, (which can result in a substantial savings). Of course if you want to try-out "x" or "y" with the TD15M's, then that option is then also available. You can even recoup some of your expenses with the lesser Eminence drivers by selling them on the after-market (perhaps Ebay or another service), thereby lowering your total cost and accelerating your purchase of the TD15M's. (..Tip: keep those Eminence boxes for re-sale purposes if you have to go this route.)

(..wrap-up "thank you for your interest" paragraph.)
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Old 9th June 2009, 12:13 PM   #6
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I've used ScottG's suggestion before and it can be a good alternative to the TD15M at lower levels in limited bandwidth applications. There is however, none of the TD15M magic going on when even remotely pushed. Decent, inexpensive PA speakers, for those with limited money. Don't try to do the things that a TD15M will allow though. If you try to cross it over high enough for a typical 2 way, you will loathe yourself for your decision.
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Old 9th June 2009, 01:03 PM   #7
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
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Quote:
On the contrary for most domestic use applications it will in fact come close. Most people don't sink that much power into a such an eff. driver for long periods (in fact prob. p!ss little even with BSC), moreover most will not use a 15" driver above 500 Hz, or even 300 Hz. Its also unlikely that excursion will be an issue either for most applications.

So yes, it's an excellent substitute given reasonable domestic limitations and an average implementation.

On the other hand this doesn't detract from the excellence of the TD15M, which is IMO not only an excellent driver but also an excellent value.

So rather than getting your "feathers ruffled" and trying to "dis" a cheap alternative - try giving credit where it's due.

With some marketing savvy to such a response you'd understand (and "pitch") the driver's as *complementary*, NOT as a competitor.
Disclaimer: I own several TD drivers

Those are good points but the TD series is for a specific niche and therefore if people do not want High SPL/low distortion, do not need to crossover a 12" driver at 1K to 2K then obviously there are many many other options. ACtually do not even think they need a 12" driver.

Now if someone wants to have high SPL/Low distortion and wants to build a 2-way and needs to crossover @ 1K -> 2K range then the TD12M has zero competition. Which is pretty cool, IMO and the price is only about $600 shipped for a pair. Not bad if you consider commercial designs that cost thousands will not come close to theis peformance. Its all a relative thing.


Of course what are the intentions of the OP?
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Old 9th June 2009, 01:22 PM   #8
Defo is offline Defo  Norway
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Quote:
Originally posted by doug20

Of course what are the intentions of the OP? [/B]
Surprisingly enough a two-way... Crossover around 1,3khz to an 1 inch compression driver, hence an 12 inch woofer to match dispersion.

Im moving my current system (15 inch woofer) to a smaller room, so a smaller speaker is preferable. At the same time I would limit my speaker expenses a bit. The TD woofers are more than double the price then the Faital incl. shipping to Norway.

It is possible for me to wait and save some money for the TD woofers, but as mentioned, ive been thinking of cutting down my speaker expenses a little..
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Old 9th June 2009, 01:36 PM   #9
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
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Quote:
Surprisingly enough a two-way... Crossover around 1,3khz to an 1 inch compression driver, hence an 12 inch woofer to match dispersion.
Me too but I already have the TD12Ms.

What CD/waveguide?


NeoDan is trying the Faital 12PR300 over on HTGuide.com, he has measurements too, it looks like a cheap alternative!

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...9&page=3&pp=35
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Old 9th June 2009, 02:57 PM   #10
badman is offline badman  United States
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I wouldn't call that a cheap alternative. Certainly cheap, but it's as dissimilar as any 15" could be from the TD15M. It is highly restricted in output and bandwidth, would require a lot more crossover work, and has obvious resonances as John noted.

As to not noticing the difference in home use..... I think that's preposterous. It's not only at high output that a good motor makes a big difference. And it's not only the motor that's subpar on this unit. The acoustic response is going to sound awful if you try to swap it into any design with any decent 15". It's a guitar speaker, not a home or pro reproducer. Fine for a cab where distortion and peakiness may be desirable, not so much for anything where quality's a concern.

For $60 you can get the NHT clearance Jensen 15", a much better unit from all appearances.

With all the solid 15"s out there, these would be near the bottom of my list. Used JBL 2226H can be found pretty cheap with some effort (hawking craigslist for JBL pro speakers), and those are relatively clean up nearer to 2kHz. that's more of an option to my way of thinking.

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