Supertweeters vs. super-supertweeters?

[JoshuaTechnomage]

Tannoy ST50/100/200
Townshed Maximum
Murata ES103A

Are the newer generation of what I refer to as super-supertweeters with output to 100khz and they all cost around $1000+ The argument often being that parts of out ear can still detect frequencies over 20khz even if we don't notice it most of the time and that higher frequencies somehow interact with the lower frequencies etc. and other pseudo scientific explanations

Interesting all the "official" reviews I've read are all positive but the personal reviews on the forums I've seen are far less stellar. Regardless these products probably have the worst price/performance ratio I've seen short of the Shun Mook Spatial Control Kits . In fact I'd sooner buy Bybee Quantum Purifiers than spend $1000+ for a supertweeter.

I can see a more conventional supertweeter coming in around 10-15khz where a fullrange or conventional dome tweeter is falling off, particularly off axis, but I have my doubts about frequencies much higher up. Any experiences?

Also noticed this using the Scanspeak R2904/7000:
http://binaryacoustictech.com/batpag...pertweeter.htm

[analog_sa]

No first hand experience but these devices obviously do something audible. I just shudder to think what that may be with 44.1Khz digital and a fashionable NOS dac.

[Ron E]

I've heard Fostex Supertweters and what they do is very subtle.

Perhaps other questions would be:
Are there any mics used in recording music that extend this high?
Does any recording equipment (or media) extend this high?
Are there any recordings that extend this high?

It would seem to me to be pointless to spend thousands to listen to only a very small percentage of recordings.

[Brett]

I heard the Tannoys some years ago and got to compare them with the affordable Fostex FT17H. To describe the difference between the units, as well as the presence of either as subtle would be an understatement.

[Pano]

And if you wanted to get really fancy, the Fostex FT96H with Alnico. Still "only" about $120. Get 5 pair and you're still in budget. =)

[jogi59]

Originally posted by analog_sa
No first hand experience but these devices obviously do something audible. I just shudder to think what that may be with 44.1Khz digital and a fashionable NOS dac.

You don´t need anything above 20 kHz.
What you are hearing with Supertweeters is usually in the 2000 to 20000 Hz area.
Most supertweeters are crossed around 20000 Hz with a 1. order filter (6dB/Okt). That means they are down 6 dB at 10000 Hz, 12 dB down at 5000 Hz, 18dB down at 2500 Hz and 24 dB down at 1250 Hz.
Even nearly deaf people can hear this.

[Ron E]

Originally posted by Brett
I heard the Tannoys some years ago and got to compare them with the affordable Fostex FT17H. To describe the difference between the units, as well as the presence of either as subtle would be an understatement.

I heard these Fostex T90:
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...roducts_id=295

My response - meh. If your speakers need these, get better speakers. If you thought it was more than subtle, perhaps they weren't attenuated enough

[Brett]

Originally posted by jogi59

You don´t need anything above 20 kHz.
What you are hearing with Supertweeters is usually in the 2000 to 20000 Hz area.
Most supertweeters are crossed around 20000 Hz with a 1. order filter (6dB/Okt). That means they are down 6 dB at 10000 Hz, 12 dB down at 5000 Hz, 18dB down at 2500 Hz and 24 dB down at 1250 Hz.
Even nearly deaf people can hear this.

When I mentioned the experiment before, we tried at a couple of different slopes. 24dB at 10k was inaudible to everyone.

I would not operate a driver intended to be crossed very high with a shallow slope. Such an approach is easy and lazy, but the driver will still be trying to reproduce signal much below it's intended bandwidth with all the distortion that will bring (which will likely be audible to some extent).

[DcibeL]

Originally posted by Ron E
If your speakers need these, get better speakers.

Agreed. When crossing drivers over at high frequencies like 10kHz the difference in acoustic centers will cause more damage to the high end frequency and phase response than anything a supertweeter could do to help the speaker sound better.

In order for a supertweeter to succeed, it must be very small and placed as close to the real tweeter as possible. IMO adding a supertweeter to a system is putting a band aid on a fundamental design issue.

[Pano]

Originally posted by Ron E
If you thought it was more than subtle, perhaps they weren't attenuated enough

Doh! That's just mean!

What is a SUPER-tweeter anyhow? Cut in above 10Khz? Higher?