Wow! horn philosophy...

[JoshuaTechnomage]

I was recently researching different types of horns and horn flares such as Tractrix vs. Conical vs. LeCleach. I wasn't aware there were such polarized viewpoints about the ideal horn structure. I came across some interesting posts:

(note: I'm not choosing sides or trying to offend anyone, also I don't know anything about the individuals involved. Just relating what I found)

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/i...5255.msg602292


Re: Who amongst us is into SET and/or Hi-Efficiency systems?
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2009, 01:04:26 pm »

In reviewing the information on horns currently out on the various forums, boards, and the net generally, I've found that the people who are claiming to be world class experts in the field are actually French mineralogists who may never have built a horn themselves (LeCleach) , an academic who thinks all horn drivers sound the same and whose own horn product resembles a preschool art project (Geddes) and an assortment of folks who, like Joe the Plumber, are now authorities in the same vein as the movie Being There, or because they were willing to write a couple of thousand words reviewing what they thought was state of the art (Kolbrek, Bouska, etc.) I won't even mention Romy the Scat except to be perverse. And I enjoy being perverse...

and:

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/GetPost.aspx?PostID=3084

A sober view on Cogent True-to-Life Sound.

...The Cogent’s Steve and Rich are eaten by the same illness as many other horn people – something that I call “horn avarice”. Even if one has no ears and can not hear a horn geting chocked with sound then a reference to Harry Olson “Elements…” should help them. In paragraph 7.3 Mr. Olson describes the “Distortions Due to Air overload in the Horn”. In reality 99% of the horns out there pretty much “greed-dead” due to the horn’s overload. How many of you heard about the infamies “horn sound”? How many of you know that lifting a crossover point slightly up in most of the cases (there are exceptions thought) resolves the problem? Invigorating? Nope, just plain stupid – why people go for the last 1/3-1/2 octave of a given horn bass extension of it kills the sound of the ENTIRE INSTALLATION? I never was able to figure out an answer to this question but I am sure many of you know how congested and hard, not to mention “honky” horn might be. Now you know the answer why….

The 2nd article goes on for awhile ripping the Cogent horns up one side and down the other. Wow! I must be missing a lot of details about this feud, I hope it's more good natured than it sounds. I wasn't aware that people had such extreme views about horns. I assumed all horn types were just compromises of different types.

What types of horns do you feel are the least colored (by the horn structure itself)?

[gainphile]

things are more peaceful in OB wold then we are all agree that box speakers sounds terrible and any disagreements are quickly settled by referring links to linkwitzlab

[soongsc]

I'm still researching this.

[MaVo]

Words spoken with dedication dont indicate superior knowledge, even if superior knowledge can lead to words spoken with dedication. You either have the choice to spend years in analyzing, building, measuring, listening or to belief one of the people who seem to know it. My choice would be Geddes, as he constantly has the best arguments.

[soongsc]

Quite interestingly since each design trend have their own roots, I have not seen anything that sort of cross examin them to look for other possibilities.

[norman bates]

Horns have their flaws.............

Many fall into the "bad" category.

I believe any parallel walls cause standing waves.
and anywhere that there is a hard break, that can cause a standing wave. And there are impedance peaks (possible standing waves) at the distance from driver to mouth, and both dimensions of the mouth.


I've had ev hp640, ev hp940, klipsch 400 something, ev hr90, and a bowtie from mcm ( 54-330 http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/54-330 ).

A hard sounding horn has glare (usually standing waves 1-5khz).

My current fav is that mcm horn.

Compression drivers usually sound forced due to the typical 10:1 compression ratio.................

You get dynamics and transients that sound real, wood blocks have impact when horn loaded.

But most horns are about getting the most out of a compression driver needed for high spl in a pa system.

I've wanted to try the mcm round horn.
It has a wonderful off axis response and I bet sounds good, but would require a 2khz crossover and a thread on driver.

here is zaph's tmm (round waveguide plus dome)
http://www.zaphaudio.com/WaveguideTMM.html
Hi-End and Hi-Efficency loudspeakers (horn + onken)
the dome doesn't have a strong enough q to get horn loading the highs.

Also round spherical horns should be the cleanest.
http://www.avantgarde-acoustic.de/ho...er.php?lang=en

and I'd like to hear these
http://www.stereo-lab.de/tractrix.html

[Brett]

Your safest bet is to ignore Romy as he is entertaining, but has a very polarised view on how things should be and is not accepting of any one else's ideas. Also take with a very large grain of salt the words of people who are trying to sell you stuff, especially if it is expensive.
Some Interesting Reading

[AndrewT]

Originally posted by norman bates
Horns have their flaws.............

Compression drivers usually sound forced due to the typical 10:1 compression ratio.................

if the horn throat is half the diameter of the diaphragm then the compression ratio is 4:1
But, I'm told that the diaphragm:throat diameter ratios are more towards 1.7:1 giving ~ 3:1 compression ratio.

A 10:1 compression ratio would require a diaphragm of >6inches diameter for a 2inch throated horn. Give me an example.

[tomtt]

Originally posted by JoshuaTechnomage


A sober view on Cogent True-to-Life Sound.

Not a 'sober view'.

steve schell tunes pianos, for a living.

to imply that he cannot hear, is inept.

which may be why "romy the cat' no longer posts here -


another forum members view of romy -

Why am I not surprised.
He apparently lives in some mental alternate reality where only he understands our physical reality,
so I just ignore him.
A pity really, the few HE forum posts of his I've read indicated he has a pretty good understanding of audio design theory,
but I'm not interested enough to wade through his expletive laced personal attack format responses in the hope of maybe learning something.

[norman bates]

phase plug maybe ?

"A horn-loaded compression driver or a loudspeaker has a phasing plug with multiple slots and a common annular chamber. The slots extend from an inlet side to the common annular chamber, which extends to an outlet side. Each slot has a path length extending to a common focal point in the common annular chamber. The common focal point has a common path length extending to the outlet side. The phasing plug provides an approximately flat acoustic wave front from the compression driver to the horn. "

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7039211.html


community m200, 2.2" diaphram, 2" exit.
compression ratio 1.84:1
http://www.communitypro.com/files/li.../M200_SPEC.pdf

Norman