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Old 17th April 2009, 06:45 PM   #11
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Ribbon vs. compression driver - what to choose?

I have been using compression drivers exclusively for years and am more than happy with them.

I will be able to comment on the TPL150 and the NeoPro5i in comparison later this year when I get some for the next projects.

Quote:
Originally posted by EspenE


I would say a compression tweeter. I have no experience with the Beyma TPL-150, but according to the spec sheet (and in common with all ribbons) the vertical dispersion is very narrow (only 20 degrees). IMO, this is a problem, and it makes mating with a woofer in a two-way more difficult.
I agree with the rest of your post, but I have never found the need for much vertical dispersion at typical home listening positions. In a studio nearfield monitor it may be more important.
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Old 31st January 2012, 08:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear View Post

PS. ur confronting a classic problem: matching to a 12" driver with something on top. Short answer, it doesn't work. Either you need the top end to go down to 500Hz or less, or else you need the 12" to run up where it gets very ragged and has horrible polar response. The usual solution in classic terms is a midrange driver, but that brings a host of other issues. Issues that literally fill up several JAES anthologies and countless text books trying to find viable solutions for... There are ways to get the top down lower, but those get large, fwiw... this is the short version...
Thats just wrong. A quality 12" like the AE is really good way beoynd the ideal XO point at 1200hz. The B&C 250, BMS 4550 and several other CD's will for home use work as low as 800hz.

I would recommend a compression driver for this purpose because it has a better polar response in a good waveguide and it's easier to make make the crossover "dissapear".

An alternative could be the TPL-150H. It's in a waveguide allready, with 102db effiency and works well down to 1200hz.

The TPL-150H are super good drivers which in my ears are more detailed than medium priced compression drivers, but they cost quite alot more aswell.
Just look at the measurement Beyma provides of the TPL 150H vs their own CD's like the 380 and you see that it's very low distortion driver. A compression drivers has slightly better Dynamics, but the Beyma AMT is much better than small ribbons and domes.

It's hard to say what you will like the best, I was thinking about the same thing myself when I built mine.

Sugestion:
Build two prototype boxes, one for a Beyma and one for the CD. Buy the Beyma from a norwegian webshop, and you can return it within two weeks if you find the CD/horn better. If everything is ready when you order that should be enough time to find out.
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Old 31st January 2012, 08:27 PM   #13
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett View Post
I have been using compression drivers exclusively for years and am more than happy with them.

I will be able to comment on the TPL150 and the NeoPro5i in comparison later this year when I get some for the next projects.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I have never found the need for much vertical dispersion at typical home listening positions. In a studio nearfield monitor it may be more important.
I love the Neopro5i or TPL150 as part of any design but when it comes to high custom rooms nothing beats the TAD CDs for effortless dynamics (Clean response) and proper horizontal and vertical polar response curves.

Ribbons limited vertical response is easily heard. Just sit or stand at any point during playback of any content. Its night and day in terms of differences. Posting opinion is great and all but lets remember everyone has their own "accepted" levels of they concern different. I think the measurements and simply vertical listening tests say everything about the differences.

Its up to each individual on how they place subjective value on these differences Sadly Audio is the worst hobby for subjective value placement
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Old 31st January 2012, 08:32 PM   #14
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
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Originally Posted by FredrikC View Post
Thats just wrong. A quality 12" like the AE is really good way beoynd the ideal XO point at 1200hz. The B&C 250, BMS 4550 and several other CD's will for home use work as low as 800hz.

I would recommend a compression driver for this purpose because it has a better polar response in a good waveguide and it's easier to make make the crossover "dissapear".

An alternative could be the TPL-150H. It's in a waveguide allready, with 102db effiency and works well down to 1200hz.

The TPL-150H are super good drivers which in my ears are more detailed than medium priced compression drivers, but they cost quite alot more aswell.
Just look at the measurement Beyma provides of the TPL 150H vs their own CD's like the 380 and you see that it's very low distortion driver. A compression drivers has slightly better Dynamics, but the Beyma AMT is much better than small ribbons and domes.

It's hard to say what you will like the best, I was thinking about the same thing myself when I built mine.

Sugestion:
Build two prototype boxes, one for a Beyma and one for the CD. Buy the Beyma from a norwegian webshop, and you can return it within two weeks if you find the CD/horn better. If everything is ready when you order that should be enough time to find out.
Well, I can say that even though my AE TD-12Ms sound good past 1KHz. I can also say its better to have a CD playing below 1Khz. All my blind tests show its a better XO in terms of perferred sound (there is a reason Geddes designs are XOed lower then 1KHz!!!).

I would go with larger CDs that play lower before running larger woofers higher up. Again, people placing $$$ before SQ can not make this choice and they end up convincing themselves its all okay.

People should definitely build all choices and compare in properly controlled listening tests (Hard to actually do but worth it).

Im not saying the 2-way 12-inch pro/CD horn design isnt good Im just saying there can be better design choices. They just cost more....it starts being a subjective debate since all these designs are superior to anything people buy
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Old 31st January 2012, 10:00 PM   #15
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Totally agree.

The 12" with XO of 1200hz to a 1" CD driver is a cheap and size effective solution. Not the ultimate solution.

My point was that the guy saying a 12" crossed to 1" CD doesn't work, is wrong. It does work.
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Old 1st February 2012, 06:04 AM   #16
DeonC is offline DeonC  South Africa
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Hi there

Have a look at the thread entitled 'Is the AE TD15M the best midrange ever'. There is a link in that thread that points to another thread of someone who used a Beyma TPL-150 and a pair of AE TD12M to build a pair of studio monitors for a pro studio. He was very satisfied with the results, calling them some of the best speakers ever, as well as recieving a lot of praise from visiting recording engineers. Well worth a read.

Enjoy,
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Old 1st February 2012, 06:13 AM   #17
DeonC is offline DeonC  South Africa
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PS. The post in which the link is, is post #24 by Loren42.

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Old 1st February 2012, 01:02 PM   #18
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeonC View Post
Hi there

Have a look at the thread entitled 'Is the AE TD15M the best midrange ever'. There is a link in that thread that points to another thread of someone who used a Beyma TPL-150 and a pair of AE TD12M to build a pair of studio monitors for a pro studio. He was very satisfied with the results, calling them some of the best speakers ever, as well as recieving a lot of praise from visiting recording engineers. Well worth a read.

Enjoy,
Deon
Wayne Parnham (sp?) of Pi speakers uses the TD12M upgrade choice for his Pi3. Someone can just ask him if that Pi3 is the best speaker he has heard with the TD12M/DE250 combo.

I have used TD series drivers for years. I also own B&C, JBL and other brands. None of them touch the TD series in terms of overall performance and measurements. I would never run my JBL 2226s above 600Hz actually but the TD15 series can handle it.

Last edited by doug20; 1st February 2012 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 1st February 2012, 01:06 PM   #19
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikC View Post
Totally agree.

The 12" with XO of 1200hz to a 1" CD driver is a cheap and size effective solution. Not the ultimate solution.

My point was that the guy saying a 12" crossed to 1" CD doesn't work, is wrong. It does work.
Definitely agree!!

It works so well that the Econowaveguide threads on Parts express and audiokarma or AVS are full of great builds.

The 2-way design works so well that a SEOS waveguide has been designed and will be offered as kits with Eminence 12" woofers or AEspeaker drivers.

There are so many threads on so many forums with so many successful 2-way high end waveguide designs that its a no brainer to know it works

Heck, we didnt even have to point out that Geddes designs are 2-way designs with large woofers so that is another proven design.
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Old 1st February 2012, 06:42 PM   #20
bobgpsr is offline bobgpsr  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug20 View Post
Wayne Parnham (sp?) of Pi speakers uses the TD12M upgrade choice for his Pi3.
Actually he uses the AE TD12S for the Three PI upgrade. It goes lower than the TD12M.
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