I am seriously considering building an 8" 2 way. I must be mad. Why? Well it has nothing to do with the technical challenges, that I can deal with. It goes like this -
Over the last 35 years of Hi Fi and DIY speakers and amplifiers the biggest problem I have had has been the other half. I don't know what it is with women, but they all seem to have the view that small is good, smaller is better, invisible is perfect, and if it is visible it needs to look like a piece of antique furniture. After 13yrs of education on what good sound is all about, and blowing her away with the sound of the Quad ESL 63, the ex went out and bought herself a Bose system!!! Anyway, afterwards she told me she was not happy with the sound and my speakers sounded much better. Ha, surprise, surprise! The only major win I have had was to convince the the other half that I need to buy a full range eletrostatic. It is large and I had them custom made with solid Walnut sides. The midrange and treble sound is just sublime, best I have heard in my life, but they suck the life out of any amp, and lessor ones end up a blackened charred smoking mess. You think I am joking? NO, believe me it has happened. Now she wants me to sell them because they are too big and heavy AAAGGGHH. We have moved them only once since I bought them so what is the problem?
The last few years have been spent trying to squeeze as much bass as is physically possible from a small driver in a small box. The boxes have been made from solid wood, so they do look rather nice, and the smaller I go, and the fancier the wood, the more satisfied SWMBO is - but real deep bass is non existent - and when I point out they need a sub I get "I am not having one of those big square box subwoofer thingies in my lounge room, if they have no bass that is your problem". Groan!
Well stuff it, damn it, dummy spit time. I never much liked subs for music, they belong with HT. So the next project is going to be BIG. I love transmission lines, have made 4 MLTLs so far, so TL it will be. Bugger it, time to have some real fun. I want serious bass and better efficiency from a bigger woofer. I believe in the KISS principle, so 2 way it will be. That means a driver that can go up to around 2Khz and a tweeter that can crossover low. That immediately rules out ribbons and metal woofers. I already have some North Creek D28 tweeters, and these are perfect. Built like a tank and will cross low and have an exceptionally nice natural sound, quite a step up from the likes of the SEAS 27TBFCG which I have also tried in the past. Woofer selection I have narrowed down to 3. The woofer needs to be available locally, which narrows the field a bit, but I can get Peerless, SS, SEAS, Vifa locally. So, the choice is Peeless Exclusive 8", SEAS CA22RNY and SEAS Excel W22NY001. I have done some TL modelling, and all will work, with the SEAS CA22 a bit more efficient but with sightly less bass extension, but I very much doubt that would be noticable with music since the frequencies are so low anyway. The two SEAS have very nice smooth rolloffs so crossover should be relatively easy. I like that. The Peerless has a breakup peak at 3Khz, but it is not too bad and the driver is tried and proven and well documented. I can't find much on the other woofers, particulalrly the SEAS Excel probably because it is fairly new and expensive, but it looks pretty good to me. The cost of the SEAS Excel in Australia is in the gasp gasp choke region and liable to get me into even more trouble, but I have been looking for an excuse to buy some SEAS Excel for a long time. The tweeter is certainly up in the same quality region as the Excel woofer. George used it with SS and Excel woofers. So, at the moment I am leaning towards the Peerless mainly becasue of the value equation, but I have plenty of time to decide, the latest small speaker project needs to be completed first. And I have a long list of things to be fixed around the house from SHMBO. I guess the bottom line is all 3 are excellent woofers and I should get good results from all 3.
On second thoughts, this could get me into a lot of trouble, especially if I go for the Excel (You spent how much!!?). Could be tricky.
Any comments?
Over the last 35 years of Hi Fi and DIY speakers and amplifiers the biggest problem I have had has been the other half. I don't know what it is with women, but they all seem to have the view that small is good, smaller is better, invisible is perfect, and if it is visible it needs to look like a piece of antique furniture. After 13yrs of education on what good sound is all about, and blowing her away with the sound of the Quad ESL 63, the ex went out and bought herself a Bose system!!! Anyway, afterwards she told me she was not happy with the sound and my speakers sounded much better. Ha, surprise, surprise! The only major win I have had was to convince the the other half that I need to buy a full range eletrostatic. It is large and I had them custom made with solid Walnut sides. The midrange and treble sound is just sublime, best I have heard in my life, but they suck the life out of any amp, and lessor ones end up a blackened charred smoking mess. You think I am joking? NO, believe me it has happened. Now she wants me to sell them because they are too big and heavy AAAGGGHH. We have moved them only once since I bought them so what is the problem?
The last few years have been spent trying to squeeze as much bass as is physically possible from a small driver in a small box. The boxes have been made from solid wood, so they do look rather nice, and the smaller I go, and the fancier the wood, the more satisfied SWMBO is - but real deep bass is non existent - and when I point out they need a sub I get "I am not having one of those big square box subwoofer thingies in my lounge room, if they have no bass that is your problem". Groan!
Well stuff it, damn it, dummy spit time. I never much liked subs for music, they belong with HT. So the next project is going to be BIG. I love transmission lines, have made 4 MLTLs so far, so TL it will be. Bugger it, time to have some real fun. I want serious bass and better efficiency from a bigger woofer. I believe in the KISS principle, so 2 way it will be. That means a driver that can go up to around 2Khz and a tweeter that can crossover low. That immediately rules out ribbons and metal woofers. I already have some North Creek D28 tweeters, and these are perfect. Built like a tank and will cross low and have an exceptionally nice natural sound, quite a step up from the likes of the SEAS 27TBFCG which I have also tried in the past. Woofer selection I have narrowed down to 3. The woofer needs to be available locally, which narrows the field a bit, but I can get Peerless, SS, SEAS, Vifa locally. So, the choice is Peeless Exclusive 8", SEAS CA22RNY and SEAS Excel W22NY001. I have done some TL modelling, and all will work, with the SEAS CA22 a bit more efficient but with sightly less bass extension, but I very much doubt that would be noticable with music since the frequencies are so low anyway. The two SEAS have very nice smooth rolloffs so crossover should be relatively easy. I like that. The Peerless has a breakup peak at 3Khz, but it is not too bad and the driver is tried and proven and well documented. I can't find much on the other woofers, particulalrly the SEAS Excel probably because it is fairly new and expensive, but it looks pretty good to me. The cost of the SEAS Excel in Australia is in the gasp gasp choke region and liable to get me into even more trouble, but I have been looking for an excuse to buy some SEAS Excel for a long time. The tweeter is certainly up in the same quality region as the Excel woofer. George used it with SS and Excel woofers. So, at the moment I am leaning towards the Peerless mainly becasue of the value equation, but I have plenty of time to decide, the latest small speaker project needs to be completed first. And I have a long list of things to be fixed around the house from SHMBO. I guess the bottom line is all 3 are excellent woofers and I should get good results from all 3.
On second thoughts, this could get me into a lot of trouble, especially if I go for the Excel (You spent how much!!?). Could be tricky.
Any comments?
The Peerless are great drivers. They're limited in high frequency extension, but have a relatively benign breakup, that's easily controlled with a single component (nice to have a lot of shorting paths in the motor, sure keeps things manageable).
But, you'll have a damned hard time getting a tweeter to do a 1kHz crossover. I'd suggest using a fostex FF85k as a midtweet, and you can do a simple, cheap supertweeter at 5k if you're so inclined.
But, you'll have a damned hard time getting a tweeter to do a 1kHz crossover. I'd suggest using a fostex FF85k as a midtweet, and you can do a simple, cheap supertweeter at 5k if you're so inclined.
Please don't kill me, but your post had me laughing!
Wow, all three drivers are worthy, I'm sure... I love the look of phase plugs, so that leaves two - of course, I simply have to go with the Excel! I think if it's real bass you're after, it might be lurking in there.
I don't doubt that the North Creek tweeter can go pretty low. You're not the first to cross an 8" to a dome tweeter, ignore the naysayers and use good drivers, I say!!!
I do like the idea of using a widebander and making it a fleshed-out 3"/4"'fullrange (my fave pick would be the 3" tangband bamboo driver, has really nice top octave, at least on-axis) but then you're not making use of your NC tweets. Could you use those as a supertweeter?
Wow, all three drivers are worthy, I'm sure... I love the look of phase plugs, so that leaves two - of course, I simply have to go with the Excel! I think if it's real bass you're after, it might be lurking in there.
I don't doubt that the North Creek tweeter can go pretty low. You're not the first to cross an 8" to a dome tweeter, ignore the naysayers and use good drivers, I say!!!
I do like the idea of using a widebander and making it a fleshed-out 3"/4"'fullrange (my fave pick would be the 3" tangband bamboo driver, has really nice top octave, at least on-axis) but then you're not making use of your NC tweets. Could you use those as a supertweeter?
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Joined 2003
Hi mandoman,
I can assure you that you are not mad. I have done just what you are considering, using a Peerless Exclusive 830884, and a Peerless HDS 810921.
See my project here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111691
The biggest hurdle with such a speaker is that you do have to use a tweeter that can perform well at low frequencies, so you can crossover at a low enough frequency (I used 1.5kHz) such that beaming isn't an issue. Also, it is a bit more difficult to get good polar response, or in other words good on-axis phase alignment at the crossover frequency, because the acoustic centers of the drivers are further apart.
If my project above interests you, all I can say is that it sounds absolutely sublime. I get bass down to 30Hz, not as much power handling as it could have with higher tuning, but it plays more than loud enough for my needs. Every single person who has listened to this speaker has asked me where my subwoofer is
Good luck with your project.
tf1216, with high end drivers like those, that crossover schematic is of no use unless it has the rest of the project to go with it, especially the baffle size.
I can assure you that you are not mad
. I have done just what you are considering, using a Peerless Exclusive 830884, and a Peerless HDS 810921.See my project here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111691
The biggest hurdle with such a speaker is that you do have to use a tweeter that can perform well at low frequencies, so you can crossover at a low enough frequency (I used 1.5kHz) such that beaming isn't an issue. Also, it is a bit more difficult to get good polar response, or in other words good on-axis phase alignment at the crossover frequency, because the acoustic centers of the drivers are further apart.
If my project above interests you, all I can say is that it sounds absolutely sublime. I get bass down to 30Hz, not as much power handling as it could have with higher tuning, but it plays more than loud enough for my needs. Every single person who has listened to this speaker has asked me where my subwoofer is
Good luck with your project.
tf1216, with high end drivers like those, that crossover schematic is of no use unless it has the rest of the project to go with it, especially the baffle size.
Well thanks for all the encouragement, and I am glad I made someone laugh. I guess some of you married folk can probably relate to my experience. I'm not really complaining, I have enjoyed making smaller speakers from solid wood because I love working with wood, but it is time to do something different and challenging. If I do go with the Excel woofer, then that will have to wait a while so I can save up the cash. The dog has been ill and the vet bill ain't funny. Just picked him up from the doggy hospital and nearly passed out when given the bill, and he is still not well so that might not be the end of it. Damn stupid dog, why do they eat rotten things that make them ill!
1Khz crossover, that's bit extreme isn't it? The North Creek will go down to 1.6Khz according to the specs, so should be feasible. Another alternative is something like a Bandor or Alpair 6 or 5, but they are inefficient, particularly the Bandors which I have used before. The current project uses Alpair 6, so I will get a good idea of what they sound like, an active crossover would solve the efficiency mismatch problem. I will check out DcibeL's project, sounds interesting, thanks for the link and encouragement. The Peerless HDS tweeter is another possibility, but increases the cost since I already have the Northcreek, and I have not yet heard the Peerless tweeter. But then you have done the hard yards with the crossover, and that is the hardest bit. Another possibility is an active crossover with steep filters, I've done that before and have a small amp suitable to power the tweeters, so should not be a problem. If I go active then is probably worth going the whole hog and use the Excel woofer. Mmmm tempting.
By the way, we don't have attics in Australia, just a roof space that gets so hot in summer it would melt the glue, so good idea, but not practical. We have a new house on the coast with a family room, so these speakers should go into the family room. She can have the lounge room, but the family room is mine, mine mine. Mmm, on second thoughts, maybe not, let's be honest, I'm kidding myself. Last resort is to put them in the workshop and live out there. I like good sound while I work. A large cabinet will have it's own challenges and is not really suitable for solid wood because the wood movement will be too big to handle, so most likely will have to be MDF. Bare MDF won't go down too well with SHMBO, to say the least, so I will have to think hard about the finish. Then again, bare MDF is fine for the workshop! That's MY territory.
1Khz crossover, that's bit extreme isn't it? The North Creek will go down to 1.6Khz according to the specs, so should be feasible. Another alternative is something like a Bandor or Alpair 6 or 5, but they are inefficient, particularly the Bandors which I have used before. The current project uses Alpair 6, so I will get a good idea of what they sound like, an active crossover would solve the efficiency mismatch problem. I will check out DcibeL's project, sounds interesting, thanks for the link and encouragement. The Peerless HDS tweeter is another possibility, but increases the cost since I already have the Northcreek, and I have not yet heard the Peerless tweeter. But then you have done the hard yards with the crossover, and that is the hardest bit. Another possibility is an active crossover with steep filters, I've done that before and have a small amp suitable to power the tweeters, so should not be a problem. If I go active then is probably worth going the whole hog and use the Excel woofer. Mmmm tempting.
By the way, we don't have attics in Australia, just a roof space that gets so hot in summer it would melt the glue, so good idea, but not practical. We have a new house on the coast with a family room, so these speakers should go into the family room. She can have the lounge room, but the family room is mine, mine mine. Mmm, on second thoughts, maybe not, let's be honest, I'm kidding myself. Last resort is to put them in the workshop and live out there. I like good sound while I work. A large cabinet will have it's own challenges and is not really suitable for solid wood because the wood movement will be too big to handle, so most likely will have to be MDF. Bare MDF won't go down too well with SHMBO, to say the least, so I will have to think hard about the finish. Then again, bare MDF is fine for the workshop! That's MY territory.
Hi, I am completely new here, but I am currently building my own 2-way system, based on the old Swedish Rauna speakers with an 8" woofer and a dome tweeter. The original models were made out of a mix of concrete and marble dust (I guess that wouldn't be too well received by your wife ), but mine will be with an mdf construction. Not sure what the finish will be yet, either a veneer or high gloss paint. The originals came in lots of sizes, all bass reflex, with the exception of the largest Crescendo model, which was a transmission line. I still have a pair of the slightly smaller Chaconne at my parents' house in Norway, and they always amazed me with their fabulous bottom end extension, among other things.
There are plenty of ways to make a 2-way like this successful, but I think the key word is simplicity. Let the bass work as freely as it can as far as it can and take it from there. The basis of my construction were made with a SEAS P21REX, with a 25TAF/G tweeter, and I also think it came in a version with the 25TFF tweeter. Those are all discontinued now, but I have managed to snag a set of the woofers and the TAF/G for my project Crossover frequency is at 2500Hz, 2nd order electrical slope.
There are a couple of DIY designs out there that build on the same principle. Take a look at Troels Gravesen's pages, or maybe this page (http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Classic.html), which has something that is pretty close to my design in looks, although the crossover frequency is at 1500Hz. It uses the SEAS CA22RNX woofer and the Scan Speak D2904-7100 tweeter. As far as the woofer selection goes, I think it is an advantage with lighter elements like this coated paper cone woofer instead of the more expensive Excel woofer. Mine is a polypropylene woofer.
I have learned a whole lot from a couple of emails with Troels Gravesen and reading his website, as well as some communication with the original designer of the Rauna speakers from Sweden. Apart from that I am a total novice in speaker building, but I will share whatever I can if you have any more questions.
), but mine will be with an mdf construction. Not sure what the finish will be yet, either a veneer or high gloss paint. The originals came in lots of sizes, all bass reflex, with the exception of the largest Crescendo model, which was a transmission line. I still have a pair of the slightly smaller Chaconne at my parents' house in Norway, and they always amazed me with their fabulous bottom end extension, among other things.There are plenty of ways to make a 2-way like this successful, but I think the key word is simplicity. Let the bass work as freely as it can as far as it can and take it from there. The basis of my construction were made with a SEAS P21REX, with a 25TAF/G tweeter, and I also think it came in a version with the 25TFF tweeter. Those are all discontinued now, but I have managed to snag a set of the woofers and the TAF/G for my project
Crossover frequency is at 2500Hz, 2nd order electrical slope. There are a couple of DIY designs out there that build on the same principle. Take a look at Troels Gravesen's pages, or maybe this page (http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Classic.html), which has something that is pretty close to my design in looks, although the crossover frequency is at 1500Hz. It uses the SEAS CA22RNX woofer and the Scan Speak D2904-7100 tweeter. As far as the woofer selection goes, I think it is an advantage with lighter elements like this coated paper cone woofer instead of the more expensive Excel woofer. Mine is a polypropylene woofer.
I have learned a whole lot from a couple of emails with Troels Gravesen and reading his website, as well as some communication with the original designer of the Rauna speakers from Sweden. Apart from that I am a total novice in speaker building, but I will share whatever I can if you have any more questions.
badman said:
As i was reading the intro post that was what i was thinking too... An XO in such a critical range is something to be avoided. Just today i switched Tysen (FF85keN + SDX7, PLLXO at 333 Hz) out for a set of Spendor BC-1s which validated how well Tysen works (the Spendors are no slouch, the BBC knew what they were doing).
Since you have the Alpair 6, why not try it? (i haven't tried mine yet, but we'll be trying it in systems similar to Tysen). With active XO use any decent midbass you want.
dave
mandoman said:
Now you're talking like a sensible married man! (The shop is my only retreat
)Build her some cute little lady speakers for the house. Then build yourself some hairy-chested manshop speakers out of reinforced concrete and asbestos cast permanently into the floor and finished with a layer of bare MDF and duct tape. Don't forget to mold drinkholders into the tops. And if you must have grilles, they should be rebar cast into the concrete enclosure.
Sorry, I just couldn't resist.
Thanks for the crossover tf1216, I will make a note of it. I am going to have to get my glasses to read it though. The W18NX does not not go down quite as far as the W22NY and is about 3db less sensitive, but it still models down to around 35Hz -3db in a MLTL. It is cheaper and the box is about 1/2 the size, so would be a heck of a lot less trouble. I can still use solid timber for the box, maybe. Will certainly bear that in mind, but I do need the baffle width. I was going to use the W18NX in another project some time ago, but changed my mind and went smaller.
Renron, I have read all the stuff about the redesign of the Thor, and it is all very interesting, but 4 Excel woofers and 2 Millenium tweeters is way out of my price league. Just the cost of the drivers would be around $2000 AUD.
Thanks runethechamp, I will look at your leads, should be interesting. I often visit Troel's site. Yep, the CA22 has the lightest cone, but the Excel is only 3gm heavier, so there is nothing in it really. The Excell is coated paper, not magnesium.
Planet 10, the Alpair 6's have not arrived yet, but they should be on their way by now. I'm looking foreward to trying them out. Have you seen Zaph's blog? Wonder if that glitch is real, those really small drivers are tricky to mount properly, get it wrong and the sound is not so good. Learned that from the Bandors. I will be measuring them myself to find out.
tsmith1315, you are too much. That is exactly what the Alpair 6 are for, a cute small MLTL made from solid Tassie Myrtle and Jarrah, similar to Jim Griffin's design. Beautiful, but somewhat lacking in deep bass. I expect she will love them.
Renron, I have read all the stuff about the redesign of the Thor, and it is all very interesting, but 4 Excel woofers and 2 Millenium tweeters is way out of my price league. Just the cost of the drivers would be around $2000 AUD.
Thanks runethechamp, I will look at your leads, should be interesting. I often visit Troel's site. Yep, the CA22 has the lightest cone, but the Excel is only 3gm heavier, so there is nothing in it really. The Excell is coated paper, not magnesium.
Planet 10, the Alpair 6's have not arrived yet, but they should be on their way by now. I'm looking foreward to trying them out. Have you seen Zaph's blog? Wonder if that glitch is real, those really small drivers are tricky to mount properly, get it wrong and the sound is not so good. Learned that from the Bandors. I will be measuring them myself to find out.
tsmith1315, you are too much
. That is exactly what the Alpair 6 are for, a cute small MLTL made from solid Tassie Myrtle and Jarrah, similar to Jim Griffin's design. Beautiful, but somewhat lacking in deep bass. I expect she will love them.
planet10 said:
Interesting, I'm no expert but when I listen to some of the drivers he has measured, I often thought that what I hear does not correlate with what he says, especially tweeters. e.g. for me, a decent ribbon sounds closer to the original sound of an acoustic instrument than any dome I have listened to. Like my electrostatic they reproduce the subtle tonal overtones of an acoustic instrument such that you can recognise individual tonal characteristics. A violin has it's own individual tonal characteristic that is different from another violin. The measurements are not telling the whole story, and in many cases I think we must be measuring the wrong thing. Ribbons measure badly, so there is something wrong there. Somehow I don't think we prefer to listen to distortion. The SEAS 27TBFCG measures better than the North Creek D28, but the North Creek sounds far better, more natural and much closer to the treble on my electrostatic, and closer to a ribbon than any other dome tweeter I have tried. Have not tried the pricey SS or SEAS Excel tweeters yet though, too dear for me. The Alpair will be interesting, I am really looking foreward to trying it out, and will do it with an open mind, not taking the blindest bit of notice to Zaph's blog. I'm really tempted to try the Alpair 10 FR as well. The domes vs ribbons argument is of course controversal, but I am firmly on the ribbon side.
If I were doing this project I'd certainly look into both active crossovers and waveguides. See both technologies implemented very successfully in this design!:
http://www.genelec.com/products/2-way-monitors/8050a/
We have these all around the music rooms at Uni. They even manage to fill a huge lecture theatre (100+ seats) with the aid of a subwoofer and don't sound stressed.
A waveguide will increase the tweeter efficiency toward it's lower end though often results in some hump in the response; using an active filter this is readily ammended. You'll also get better driver centre alignment
With ribbons and domes my experience has also been to prefer ribbons (or in my case, planars, haven't heard actual ribbon). I always consider the distortion in any reasonably good ribbon/planar to be subjectively inaudible when crossed over suitably high so all you gain is the different/better polar response and improved transient response!
http://www.genelec.com/products/2-way-monitors/8050a/
We have these all around the music rooms at Uni. They even manage to fill a huge lecture theatre (100+ seats) with the aid of a subwoofer and don't sound stressed.
A waveguide will increase the tweeter efficiency toward it's lower end though often results in some hump in the response; using an active filter this is readily ammended. You'll also get better driver centre alignment
With ribbons and domes my experience has also been to prefer ribbons (or in my case, planars, haven't heard actual ribbon). I always consider the distortion in any reasonably good ribbon/planar to be subjectively inaudible when crossed over suitably high so all you gain is the different/better polar response and improved transient response!
Dr.EM said:
Agreed. I strongly advise against using a regular tweeter without waveguide with a large woofer. Woofer directivity will not permit good power response with this combo. It seems that the Internet is full of designs where directivity and power response are not considered at all when those are the dominating aspects of loudspeaker performance.
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