Isn't there any 3d audio simulation software out yet??

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JinMTVT

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Joined 2004
I have searched from google a bit and couldn't find anything of what i was looking for,
as anyone heard of a full 3d wave field simulator ??

i can't see why nobody has come up with that yet,
we've all seen the "tank ripple" java app

wouldn't it be alot easier for us to simulate room modes,
interaction, driver placement etc... with a 3d package ?

could throw in some frequency to see wave propagation and interaction in 3d ???

we could also try complexe arrangement and theories

maybe my head is screwed up also ...or maybe it already exists

i don't think it would be that hard to make such a software, as we can all see how computer 3d rendering
is advanced now with photon mapping and light rays ...
 
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jason_watkins

Member
Joined 2005
Light is actually easier. Photon mapping and similar path tracing methods don't have to consider diffraction.

I'm past my depth in math on this topic, but I believe Boundary Element Method is the most applicable, and is still quite expensive computationally. A 3d version of a wave tank would be simpler but even more expensive computationally, since it will be proportional to the volume of space simulated rather than the surface area. I imagine Dr Geddes could also point out acoustic effects that a 3d wave tank would fail to model.

I have been interested in quite some time whether there was a monte carlo simulation method applicable to audio, similar to how participating media is handled in path tracers. My suggestion is that you could use Hyugen's principle similarly to photon tracing, where an initial ray from the source has a probability distribution along it's length of becoming a new virtual point source generating a path in a different direction. Also I think because sound waves interfere significantly at the frequencies of interest, you'd have to accumulate not just energy transfered to the sensor, but also the unwrapped phase/path distance of each sampled path.

Again, being out of my depth mathematically I don't have any clue if this idea can be put on a solid mathematical foundation, and if so what the probability distributions along rays or around the unit sphere for new virtual wavefront sources would be.
 
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JinMTVT

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Joined 2004
i don't want to spend a dime !!! that's the beauty of internet ... :p

i just want to know if there are any solutions available

i understand that sound wave have multiple properties that are modified along their life and interactions with spatial elements
that makes it expensive for cpu time

but it all depends on "resolution" factor

a software that could resolve basic parameters for a define timeline in a limited space enveloppe
with a basic resolution
could be a crazy tool for us

imagine being able to model your listening room with basic elements ( using even cubes and some basic forms, with material properties )
or beeing able to model a loudspeaker box and place it in an empty room to see diffraction and wave behavior
around/withing the box/room

that would be very very academic

i can play 1-2 hours with the tank ripple app
just trying some patterns and playing with frequency
trying to understand basic stuff
and i believe that beeing able to visualize sound waves
would be so cool, in a wanted situation of course
 
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jlo

Member
Joined 2004
ohl.to
imagine being able to model your listening room with basic elements ( using even cubes and some basic forms, with material properties ) or beeing able to model a loudspeaker box and place it in an empty room to see diffraction and wave behavior around/withing the box/room
Click to expand...
I did a kind of auralisation software where you can model your speakers, filters, box, room, and listen to the result moving in the room.
But it is a crude approximation : only paralellepidic room, damping is uniform, etc...
Try it, it's free :
http://www.ohl.to/about-audio/audio-softwares/the-final-cut/
It's missing a manual (but should be easy to use) ;)
 
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MJK

Disabled Account
Joined 2002
quarter-wave.com
JinMTVT said:
imagine being able to model your listening room with basic elements ( using even cubes and some basic forms, with material properties )
or beeing able to model a loudspeaker box and place it in an empty room to see diffraction and wave behavior
around/withing the box/room

that would be very very academic
Click to expand...

That is exactly where I am headed.

First I added the capability to model the driver and port or terminus on a front baffle (or rear for the port or terminus) in discrete locations including the baffle edges and some limited room interaction. That was the lkast set of worksheets I made available.

Now I have upped the solution to account for corner loading, toe-in, and even full rectangular room response. It seems to work reasonably well. These are the worksheest I am using right now.

All of my future speaker designs will be done taking the room into account. You can see the first results, measured and calculated, in my Jordan OB and Goldwood H frame design with the passive crossover that is documented on my site.

I still have a lot of work to do but I think that is the future, the lumped parameter Thiele / Small modeling assumptions take you only so far and this starts to move past those simplifying assumptions.
 
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flexus

Member
Joined 2007
mister twister told you the best particle animation software available on the market. the learning curve is really much more than steep, the price too. i dont know if your interest goes that far. within houdini you can model mainly everything. you only need to know every parameter of your soundwave and understand the correct expression . the functions needed for wave visualization are also included into maya unlimited. both have steep learning curves.
i believe you wanna model a horn or something like that.
mainly soundwave animation is not that hard, you need to know about collision detection and maybe a little bit of scripting language.
the beginning of the correct animation is modeling an arc, for example the form of a dome tweeter and let the correct amount of particles spread along this path. the rest is all based on your correct settings about the waves and the colliding object. the standard settings are often incursion angel = excursion angel.
animation with wavesound capturing in maya is possible.
the only thing you have to know about 3d software is: every solution is made of a bunch of workarounds.
hope this is useful for you,

greets,
flexus
 
pedroskova

pedroskova

RIP
Joined 2002
flexus said:
mister twister told you the best particle animation software available on the market. the learning curve is really much more than steep, the price too. i dont know if your interest goes that far. within houdini you can model mainly everything. you only need to know every parameter of your soundwave and understand the correct expression . the functions needed for wave visualization are also included into maya unlimited. both have steep learning curves.
i believe you wanna model a horn or something like that.
mainly soundwave animation is not that hard, you need to know about collision detection and maybe a little bit of scripting language.
the beginning of the correct animation is modeling an arc, for example the form of a dome tweeter and let the correct amount of particles spread along this path. the rest is all based on your correct settings about the waves and the colliding object. the standard settings are often incursion angel = excursion angel.
animation with wavesound capturing in maya is possible.
the only thing you have to know about 3d software is: every solution is made of a bunch of workarounds.
hope this is useful for you,

greets,
flexus
Click to expand...

To distill what flexus writes above for JinMTVT...

Are you ready for a thesis project in which the "tuition" is 5-10 grand?

Didn't think so. ;)
 
D

djarchow

Member
Joined 2007
Here is an example of what a prefessional HT designer goes through in acoustic modelling just for the subwoofers in a room...mind you, many of his installs are in the million dollar range so they can afford the resources needed to do this kind of modelling.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15990521#post15990521

There is some FEM room modelling tools in SoundEasy but they are far less than what Keith is talking about in this post.

Regards,

Dennis
 
J

JinMTVT

Member
Joined 2004
MJK: exactly !!! i also firmly belive that the room and it's accoustics are tied to every system just as much as all of the other parts, and using "generic" loudspeakers or designing without the room parameters and without designing the room is just ridiculous


MisterTwister: you probably can't see it because it doesn't yet exist :p

have you played with the ripple tank java app?
i mean played HOURS ..tried stuff
it is a very very very basic simulation tool
but yet have so many "revealling" features
you can actually see the diff. equations/systems wou've read about ...feel em

it would be the same thing with a complete sound 3d package .... another world


About 3d apps and particles ..
i have worked and studied in 3d graphics for games/movies .... have worked quite a bit in the gaming industry
the particle systems you list are seriously advanced,
even more when they started to throw in scripting possibilities ..wich makes it almost limitless
( limited by scripting boundaries )
but i have not played with scripting
worked with softimage, AliasWavefront, maya, xsi
and 3dmax alot ... only played with softimage particles
and 3dmax ones ...

i don't quite see though how you could code all of the different parameters of sound waves..but i guess that some system permit following properties for individual particle ? even then ..would be a serious task

the 3d software would be a big + for using the 3d modelling package

3dmax Design is probably the easiest for architect. type of 3d design ... inventor/Solid works stuff would also be very good for precise modelling
but their FEA stuff is "weird" and i don't know how one could adapt the FEA for anything other then their phisical simulations ...also very very expensive on computational side


Panomaniac :

WOWOW
what a nice link
looks like a very good software
http://www.cara.de/ENU/CARA/index.html
i'll definitly look it all
and if it is even interesting, i'll purchase it
80$ is ridiculous if it does even half of what is advertised

but again ..didn't see anything about speaker diffraction
the "3d" part seems very limited to regular room boundaries ...but they seem to have implemented alot of different materials!!!!

MJK: please take a look at CARA and let us know what you think ( limitations , maths behind is ok? stuff that only you ( and a limtied bunch of member ) can understand ) so us regular mortals can understand how it can be used better !
 
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