Equal-Loudness-Curves / Fletcher-Munson / ISO 226 / etc. - WHY do we care? - Page 2 - diyAudio
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Old 24th February 2009, 07:45 PM   #11
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Default Re: Re: Equal-Loudness-Curves / Fletcher-Munson / ISO 226 / etc. - WHY do we care?

Quote:
Originally posted by sreten



Hi,

The above statement needs serious qualification to be accurate.

/sreten.
Atkinson has a good summary of the evidence here:
http://www.stereophile.com/features/103/index2.html
And another good paper is this one:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cf...70&name=harman

You could probably qualify my statement further, but what the evidence does NOT say is to equalize against one of those standard U-shaped curves.

SG
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Old 24th February 2009, 08:26 PM   #12
sreten is online now sreten  United Kingdom
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Hi,

One would surmise that ISO 226 does not exist just to enable
you to do something not very clever with them, which you seem
to be implying.

Do they have much to do with loudspeaker design ?

Yes if you do something clever with them. Such as not designing
a speaker flat to 20Hz but with a max SPL level that is inaudible.

Quote:
... but what the evidence does NOT say is to equalize
against one of those standard U-shaped curves ....
Who is choosing the evidence ? for what circumstances ?


/sreten.
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Old 24th February 2009, 08:58 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by sreten
Hi,

One would surmise that ISO 226 does not exist just to enable
you to do something not very clever with them, which you seem
to be implying.

Do they have much to do with loudspeaker design ?

Yes if you do something clever with them. Such as not designing
a speaker flat to 20Hz but with a max SPL level that is inaudible.



Who is choosing the evidence ? for what circumstances ?


/sreten.
I'm sorry, but I read what you wrote twice, and I don't understand what you're trying to say.

SG
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Old 24th February 2009, 09:36 PM   #14
MaVo is offline MaVo  Germany
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Sometimes it helps to paraphase the individual sentences and see it it makes sense afterwards. Or just read it a couple more times, since it does make sense.
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Old 24th February 2009, 09:51 PM   #15
infinia is offline infinia  United States
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Default Re: Equal-Loudness-Curves / Fletcher-Munson / ISO 226 / etc. - WHY do we care?

Quote:
Originally posted by smellygas

I mean, it's been very well established that a perfectly flat SPL vs. frequency curve, measured in an anechoic chamber, is what sounds best to listeners.
SG

Really, I don't think that is a proven fact at all.
I don't think the curves are all that accurate to base any science on. IMO It only shows a trend as where are ears are most sensitive and that some bass boost is needed lower listening levels.
Does it make sense that a speaker design with a similar response to the Fletcher-Munson curve would be the flattest sounding at the brain interface, ala BBC dip and all that.
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Old 24th February 2009, 10:29 PM   #16
badman is offline badman  United States
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Most of us listen below reference level. Good thing for our ears! So, I like to build in a little bass and treble lift to maintain spectral balance more similar to what it would be at a higher volume.
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Old 24th February 2009, 10:58 PM   #17
Dr_EM is offline Dr_EM  United Kingdom
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As stated, they can be useful for gaining the original frequency response as recorded when played back at lower levels. They shouldn't be applied fully in all situations though as music will be mixed with them in-built as it were, the mixing engineer would have heard through his monitors and mixed to what sounded right, quite probably increasing the level of bass etc. (in considering pop/rock/dance music). Providing you play at the mixing level on equally flat speakers you should also achieve an optimum response
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Old 24th February 2009, 11:56 PM   #18
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Default Re: Re: Equal-Loudness-Curves / Fletcher-Munson / ISO 226 / etc. - WHY do we care?

Quote:
Originally posted by infinia



Really, I don't think that is a proven fact at all.
I don't think the curves are all that accurate to base any science on. IMO It only shows a trend as where are ears are most sensitive and that some bass boost is needed lower listening levels.
Does it make sense that a speaker design with a similar response to the Fletcher-Munson curve would be the flattest sounding at the brain interface, ala BBC dip and all that.
The curves are derived from numerous empirical studies of equal-loudness, then consolidated by a standards committee. The fact that there were multiple studies conducted by different, independent groups and they all produced similar results tells me that the curves are probably valid.

Furthermore, I don't think that a speaker design with a similar response to the F-M curve, measured anechoically, will sound the most pleasing. Please refer to the two links I provided which refer to actual studies that support the concept that anechoic flat is the most pleasing loudspeaker response.

SG
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Old 24th February 2009, 11:59 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by MaVo
Sometimes it helps to paraphase the individual sentences and see it it makes sense afterwards. Or just read it a couple more times, since it does make sense.
Apparently, my 8 years of post-secondary education followed by 4 years of professional education have failed me miserably. Perhaps you could paraphrase the individual sentences for me.

SG
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Old 25th February 2009, 12:18 AM   #20
MaVo is offline MaVo  Germany
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Quote:
Originally posted by sreten
One would surmise that ISO 226 does not exist just to enable
you to do something not very clever with them, which you seem
to be implying.

Do they have much to do with loudspeaker design ?

Yes if you do something clever with them. Such as not designing
a speaker flat to 20Hz but with a max SPL level that is inaudible.

Who is choosing the evidence ? for what circumstances ?

/sreten.
Following is my paraphrase / interpretation of the quote. Sorry if i dont get it 100%, since i am no native english speaker, as most of you are.

I think, that ISO 226 (the Equal Loudness Countour) has to be used in the right way, while you seem to be drawing the wrong conclusions from it.

Does ISO 226 have something to do with loudspeaker design?

Yes, but you have to use the information it holds in the right way. This way is, for example, to identify the lowest frequency, one can hear at a certain level. Then you design a loudspeaker with this information, so that it doesnt struggle to produce frequencies, which you wont hear anyway, since it cannot make them loud enough, by raising the low frequency corner of said speaker.
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