I thought I'd throw this question into the ring because my partner keeps asking why I need to buy more woofers "again"
do others judge acceptable performance based on the cost of the finished speaker, or do you already have a set of criteria ready for shopping.
Is the next set of woofers always going to be dearer better than the last set??
Do you shop knowing in advance that you need sub-woofers??
Balance is always important but what is your major factor when designing and buying, bass?? Mid-range clarity, extended highs and top end??
I'm moving house at the moment so all projects are suspended until I get my new "Man-cave"
do others judge acceptable performance based on the cost of the finished speaker, or do you already have a set of criteria ready for shopping.
Is the next set of woofers always going to be dearer better than the last set??
Do you shop knowing in advance that you need sub-woofers??
Balance is always important but what is your major factor when designing and buying, bass?? Mid-range clarity, extended highs and top end??
I'm moving house at the moment so all projects are suspended until I get my new "Man-cave"
"Acceptable" is by definition a subjective term so any reply and view should be ... acceptable. 
To me, acceptable is something that reproduces the lower three octaves (16 ~ 128Hz) without a boomy effect. A small driver in a small enclosure can't even hope to produce realistic sound levels but aim for audible.
In other terms, I'd like to be able to listen to the lower chello and piano notes, albeit at an attenuated level.
Obviously, that might not be acceptable for Rock music as it would make the drums lifeless. In such a case, a slight to medium overshoot could be prefered - even be more enjoyable.
As the absolute perfect reproduction is both expensive, room dependant and in many cases impossible, acceptable comes into play with each one focusing on different attributes.
To me, acceptable is something that reproduces the lower three octaves (16 ~ 128Hz) without a boomy effect. A small driver in a small enclosure can't even hope to produce realistic sound levels but aim for audible.
In other terms, I'd like to be able to listen to the lower chello and piano notes, albeit at an attenuated level.
Obviously, that might not be acceptable for Rock music as it would make the drums lifeless. In such a case, a slight to medium overshoot could be prefered - even be more enjoyable.
As the absolute perfect reproduction is both expensive, room dependant and in many cases impossible, acceptable comes into play with each one focusing on different attributes.
I agree, it provides reference points.
IMO: Perfection is a human concept. Human physiology guarantees a limited ability to perceive the visual and auditory spectrum anyway. The drive to a nebulous concept like perfection has ( and continues to be ) something that is sought for a long time by mankind.
Probably has been the source of madness for many.
454Casull"s answer works for me
Not a Cave, But a Dome
From http://www.federallabs.org/news/top-stories/articles/?pt=top-stories/articles/1006-01.jsp
* No DIY plans available - yet
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
From http://www.federallabs.org/news/top-stories/articles/?pt=top-stories/articles/1006-01.jsp
* No DIY plans available - yet
Acceptable could mean a table top radio to an all out TOTL cost no object set-up. It really has no meaning unless you put it into some kind of context.
I have a couple of cloned reference systems I use to judge performance by. It's all relative though as the reference systems are all different but are all good in their own right with different strenghts.
This is such an open ended hobby some of you may hate how my referencecs sound. So I see acceptable as personal perspective unless we happen to be in the same room agreeing we both like what we hear.
Rob
I have a couple of cloned reference systems I use to judge performance by. It's all relative though as the reference systems are all different but are all good in their own right with different strenghts.
This is such an open ended hobby some of you may hate how my referencecs sound. So I see acceptable as personal perspective unless we happen to be in the same room agreeing we both like what we hear.
Rob
Perfection, for me, would be to listen to the master recordings through the same monitors and other equipment the music was mastered on. This would be exactly how it was intended to sound. Good or bad, this is where it begins for the end listener. Everything else is compromise from there. This is also the reason I prefer to make and record my own music. I can get the sound exactly where I want it.
Acceptable is certainly a vague, yet subjectively loaded word that can certainly be used in a variety of seemly contradictory contextual patterns.
In the realm of loudspeakers, my use of the word acceptable starts with the realistic protrayal of the human voice and unamplified acoustic instruments. If these are not produced in a manner that accurately resembles, what we would accept as a very close reproduction of the original, then a speaker is (to me) unacceptable.
"The music resides in the midrange, all the rest is mere adornment." [Terry Olson, ca. 1980]
So if you get the vocals and acoustic instruments "spot-on" the rest is, by comparison, fairly easy.
Best Regards,
TerryO
In the realm of loudspeakers, my use of the word acceptable starts with the realistic protrayal of the human voice and unamplified acoustic instruments. If these are not produced in a manner that accurately resembles, what we would accept as a very close reproduction of the original, then a speaker is (to me) unacceptable.
"The music resides in the midrange, all the rest is mere adornment." [Terry Olson, ca. 1980]
So if you get the vocals and acoustic instruments "spot-on" the rest is, by comparison, fairly easy.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Acceptable is something you are happy with, but by definition is again something that could be better. Which is where the problem lies. Are we happy with acceptable? Quite clearly not, otherwise we wouldn't be in this hobby to start with.
But in my opinion, there's a lot of you never realise how much you miss something till its gone, in hifi.
That extra level of transparency, that extra half octave of bass or maybe the ability to reproduce dynamics, anything you care to mention. If you've never experienced it, you are far more likely to be happy with your current system.
Whenever I make an upgrade, that offers a true improvement, the best moments are the first few times I listen to it, as its fresh. Give it a few months and I'm accustomed to the sound, it's no longer "exciting" it's just what I expect to be there, its common place. Sure, it sounds good, but there are very few moments of amazement, like there were when I first started listening to it.
This acclimatisation has led me over the years, to seek out new upgrades to provide that thrill of the "first" listen again. The closer the system gets to being "perfect", the less this desire is there, as there are fewer things that annoy me about the system.
In fact the best tonic for this is actually listening to a system that's
worse then yours rather then better, as it makes you appreciate your own system once again.
The mentality you take towards these upgrades is important however. Each and every one I've made, has been founded in science, it will sound better because of XYZ reason. Not, it will sound better because its got to, simply because it costs 10x the amount. There have been defects and areas where there has been clear room for improvement. Every system worked, it was "acceptable", but there has always been a better way to do X, or change this as its better then Z.
If there are areas where there is room for improvement, you're going to want to make that improvement. You know it should sound better and that's what drives you to want to try it out.
For me it isn't just a case of, here we go another set of woofers, its the fun and learning I have/do along the way too. I get huge pleasure from working on another project, seeing the completion. There will always be another pair of something, simply because there is a drive to try something different, to experiment with something I've never tried before.
So back to the original question of
the answer is fairly simple, it brings you pleasure.
Interestingly woofers and tweeters last for years too and can be used in many different projects in many different ways. It's not as if you're throwing money down the drain on cigarettes or booze, or computers parts that will be outdated in 6 months time.
But in my opinion, there's a lot of you never realise how much you miss something till its gone, in hifi.
That extra level of transparency, that extra half octave of bass or maybe the ability to reproduce dynamics, anything you care to mention. If you've never experienced it, you are far more likely to be happy with your current system.
Whenever I make an upgrade, that offers a true improvement, the best moments are the first few times I listen to it, as its fresh. Give it a few months and I'm accustomed to the sound, it's no longer "exciting" it's just what I expect to be there, its common place. Sure, it sounds good, but there are very few moments of amazement, like there were when I first started listening to it.
This acclimatisation has led me over the years, to seek out new upgrades to provide that thrill of the "first" listen again. The closer the system gets to being "perfect", the less this desire is there, as there are fewer things that annoy me about the system.
In fact the best tonic for this is actually listening to a system that's
worse then yours rather then better, as it makes you appreciate your own system once again.
The mentality you take towards these upgrades is important however. Each and every one I've made, has been founded in science, it will sound better because of XYZ reason. Not, it will sound better because its got to, simply because it costs 10x the amount
. There have been defects and areas where there has been clear room for improvement. Every system worked, it was "acceptable", but there has always been a better way to do X, or change this as its better then Z.If there are areas where there is room for improvement, you're going to want to make that improvement. You know it should sound better and that's what drives you to want to try it out.
For me it isn't just a case of, here we go another set of woofers, its the fun and learning I have/do along the way too. I get huge pleasure from working on another project, seeing the completion. There will always be another pair of something, simply because there is a drive to try something different, to experiment with something I've never tried before.
So back to the original question of
the answer is fairly simple, it brings you pleasure.
Interestingly woofers and tweeters last for years too and can be used in many different projects in many different ways. It's not as if you're throwing money down the drain on cigarettes or booze, or computers parts that will be outdated in 6 months time.
The next set of anything is going to be purchased when the problem or thing I want to upgrade has been identified(if we're talking about upgrading one system). And also that the "problem" will be fixed or should be addressed with the upgrade. None of this - I don't like the way the XYZ sounds so im just going to throw money at it and hope it fixes itself - I'd have a hard time justifying the spending of money in this case. If you have to convince yourself that this is the right thing to do, then I'd say, well it really isn't. If you cannot give your significant other the technical reasons as to why this is an improvement, then you shouldn't be buying that next pair of woofers. Unless of course you are just wanting to experiment.
I want to try the Vifa XT19/25 at some point, why? They look snazzy are somewhat different to normal domes and I would like to work with them, no other reason
I shop in advance, knowing that this upgrade will only address that problem, as you cant fix a leaky pipe with a lightbulb, but you can light the room with the bulb so you can see the leak.
hi Moondog
I think that William Cowan defines it quite well on his website
http://www.cowanaudio.com/ steps to great sound
I suggest this as his quest for bass is certainly pushing the boundaries, in a good way
I think that William Cowan defines it quite well on his website
http://www.cowanaudio.com/ steps to great sound
I suggest this as his quest for bass is certainly pushing the boundaries, in a good way
Acceptable also is very dependent ( for me ) on the setting, if I am just filling in the hole and have only half my mind on the music as I work then having that last half octave of bass is less important.
Or late at nite , lying in bed and cuddling my partner too.
Parties for example, it just needs to be loud and the bass beat for dancing takes precedent, dinner music should not dominate.
Or late at nite , lying in bed and cuddling my partner too.
Parties for example, it just needs to be loud and the bass beat for dancing takes precedent, dinner music should not dominate.
I got to hear his system a few weeks ago, and it's definitely the best system I've heard. It did everything as well as I remember* my big horns did (old dismantled system) but the integration and coherence was much, much better. Considering that the entire system cost less than a set of 5" 2 ways I know of locally, it's also surprisingly good value. William is a good engineer and has approached it methodically and it shows. Plus it is the most discrete system I think I've ever seen.Antripodean said:hi Moondog
I think that William Cowan defines it quite well on his website
http://www.cowanaudio.com/ steps to great sound
I suggest this as his quest for bass is certainly pushing the boundaries, in a good way
I'd planned to build my Unity's and add some TH subs, but I've just bought a modest apartment and I think I might be able to add a bit of EQ to make it 'enough' at LF in room. they'll probably end up looking similar to William's original enclosures as I can't fit the big ones I planned in.
* Beranek's law is certainly at play here.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.