12 " for lower midrange - upper bass

[Audiodidakt]

12 " for lower midrange - upper bass

Friends;

I am searching for a suitable 12 " driver to cover lower midrange and upper bass (freq 300 - 80 Hz).

It has to fitt in a closed / aperiodic enclosure of 30-40 liters, but I will have access to almost unlimited EQ-possibilities through Audiolense-software.

I want lots of dynamics (and "slam") and believe the element should at least have sensibility = 90 dB.

My current choise is Beyma 12P1000ND, but I feel I should investigate a little more before conclusion is made.

Are there other interesting alternatives? e.g. JBL, 18sounds, Lambada etc?

Currently price is not an issue, but will of course be considered in the final round.

Best regards

Gisle

 

[tinitus]

The 12P100ND you suggest doesnt seem like it does what you expect

The 12LW30/N seems like it hits your demands spot on...and looks smoother too

Mind you, its not that I recommend it, I cant as I dont know it

Why not use a 15"

Like this nice PrecisionDevices...fits your demands perfectly

http://www.precisiondevices.co.uk/showdetails.asp?id=79

 

[Audiodidakt]

The PD 15 " looked very nice!

Q=0,707 gives a box of apx 43 liters

I am planning to crossover to an Audiotechnology 18 cm element at 200-300 Hz; will the PD 15" mate ok motorvise? (i.e. are the "motor" strong enough to start/stop the element in the region where the 18 cm is overlapping/crossection?)

(Maybe steep xrossover (48 dB or more per octave) will "cure" such a problem?)

 

[tinitus]

The PD 15 " looked very nice!

Q=0,707 gives a box of apx 43 liters

are the "motor" strong enough to start/stop the element in the region where the 18 cm is overlapping/crossection?)

(Maybe steep xrossover (48 dB or more per octave) will "cure" such a problem?)

You could probably cross it at 500hz, if thats what you wanted
There should be no need fore such step filters
But maybe include a notch, and 12db may be sufficient

 

[Audiodidakt]

Excellent!

My worries above rely on what I have previously read about the BW Nautilus 801, where the 15" XO to a 6" at about 300.

All reviewers state that the BW 15" must be driven by a large amp to mate correctly with the 6", but I don't know the start/stop-factor of the BW 15 " element vs the PD 15" mentioned above.

 

[Khron]

You could take a peek at some P-Audio drivers. For instance, the AM-12LF can do an ~80Hz f3 in a 34litre box (Q 0.707), with over 93dB/1W. Or the E12-250N: f3 a bit below 80Hz in a 40litre box (Q 0.8), around 95dB/1W.

They're both PA drivers, but i'm not sure if that's an impediment. The up-side is that they're not costly at all

 

[EspenE]

In my experience, JBL 12-inch elements is hard to beat in your intended application: 80-300 Hz in a (relatively) small closed box. Check out the 2206H at http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2206.pdf or the 2204H at http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2204h.pdf

The former is still in production, the latter is sometimes available on eBay.

And BTW: Smaller drivers (6") do not "stop/start" faster than larger drivers (12", 15"). That is a myth. Read white paper from Dan Wiggins of Adire Audio at http://www.diycable.com/main/pdf/WooferSpeed.pdf

Espen

 

[John_E_Janowitz]

Re: 12 " for lower midrange - upper bass

My current choise is Beyma 12P1000ND, but I feel I should investigate a little more before conclusion is made.

Are there other interesting alternatives? e.g. JBL, 18sounds, Lambada etc?

The TD12S will likely be your best option. It has clean response out to 2KHz, extremely low inductance, extremely low distortion, high Xmax, high efficiency, and very good heat dissipation.

http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=11


Take a look at the Lambda motor design here. http://www.aespeakers.com/Lambda001-1.php It explains what is done in the motor and why it is done. Then you can look at this vs any of the other designs to see what they do or don't do.

John

 

[Overkill Audio]

Reply to private email.

Hi Gisle,

Original question by private email but my reply kept bouncing back from your email so please find below my thoughts.

"I am looking for a speaker covering the frequence-area from around 1000 Hz to 150 Hz. (Cross upwards with the Beyma TL150 and downwards to JBL 2226H - all active).

Do you believe the Volt-driver is one of the best I can choose? (Or would you recommend another driver?)

And if so, would a 25 liter closed encloser suffice?

Best regards

Gisle Danielssen
Norway"
Hi Gisle,

Hi Gisle,

The Volt BM25.1 and the Volt BM2500.4 are the two best drivers I have used in the 100Hz to 2Khz range, they really are beautiful sounding and beautifully made pro drivers.
The differences between them are basically the 251.4 has a lower Mms (28g) and corresponding higher(97 dB) efficiency. It sacrifices power handling and will have more thermal compression due to its 50mm voice coil. The BM2500.4 has a 75mm voice coil and a 48g Mms, but a higher BL helps keep the efficiency up to 92 dB. The lower Fs 32Hz 2500.4 gives a richer lower mid as well as a lower -3 dB point in the bass.
As you are using a separate bass driver you can choose between the two drivers performance in the 150Hz to 2Khz band. With the TPL and a good active crossover(Linear phase filters with 48 to 60 dB slopes) I suggest you try a crossover of about 1,800Hz and then work your way down in 100Hz steps. Anything below 1200Hz will start to stress the TPL, it sounds great with a DEQX crossover 60dB Linear Phase slopes, and the Volt 2500.4 in my open baffle VPL (see photos of the my "Finale" speakers on the forum which show the Volt 2500.4 in VPL open baffle) and a Beyma 15 inch or Precision Devices 18inch bass drivers.
I strongly recommend you run the Volt drivers in an open baffle VPL cabinet if (like me) you use them above 150Hz. They will amaze you with their speed and power yet are sweet and rich at the same time. I have never done a controlled A/B B/A (!) test to compare the Volts as I have used them both in different designs. They are both awesome so good luck and enjoy!

Cheers

Derek.

 

[Audiodidakt]

Thanks for answering Derek!


Due to limitations regarding my listening room, open baffle is sadly no alternativ: the speakers have to be positioned pretty close to the back wall.

But maybe the Volt can be used in a closed / aperiodic - enclosure of say 25 liters?

How high up can a 10" normally be brought up in frequence and still maintain resonable horisontal disperision? (I have maybe changed tweeter preference from Beyma to Raal due to vertial disperison-limitations...)

Best regards Gisle

 

[David_Web]

How about B&C 12PE32?
Looks like a sweet driver.

I have heard the B&C 10PS26 and it's a very good driver. Great punch and kick to it.

I plan to build an aperiodic enclosure with B&C 15PE40 so maybe I'm biased. I know they sound great in OB but I have the same problem with space as you.

 

[Brett]

I second the AE TD12M

 

[Audiodidakt]

Hmm...

Thanks for replies guys!

For the 10" and 12"; how is the horizontal disperision say up to 2800 Hz?

(I havent decided yet which Raal I would go for, the 70-10 will have to crossed over at 2800Hz while the bigger brother can manage a crossover around 15-1600 Hz)

 

[Piek]

Hi,

this one is the best bass I 've heard so far http://www.monacor.de/typo3/index.php?id=84&L=1&spr=EN&artid=6070&typ=u&hkatid=&ukatid=&brand=
Lots of slam and everything you want, this driver is used in Monacor "Menhir".

-Micha

 

[Overkill Audio]

Volt in sealed box

Hi Gisle,

Sure thing a 25 litre sealed box will work very well with either of the Volts I mentioned so far. Also the Volt BM2500.5 ( such confusing driver numbers!) looks like your perfect compromise ie great power handling from a 3 inch / 75mm voice coil, but still great efficiciency @ 95Db and beautiful smooth response out to 2.5KHz.
The AE drivers from America look very good on paper and are the only other drivers I would be tempted to try. The TD12M and TD 15M look tasty!
I have only heard the big Raal ribbon at a show and I was not impressed, the Beyma TPL is waybetter.
Pro driver manufacturers and Beyma in particular dont go in for a lot of the audiophile review hype and marketing but they have more R&D talent than all the "boutique specialists" put together.

Try before you buy...! Jump on a cheap Ryanair flight to Norway (edit, your already there!) and have a listen to Stig Eriks TPL system ( he can also give you a great deal on the TPL drivers!) no RAAL or even Stage Acompany ribbon comes close in my opinion.

All the best

Derek.

 

[xpert]

Excellent!

My worries above rely on what I have previously read about the BW Nautilus 801, where the 15" XO to a 6" at about 300.

All reviewers state that the BW 15" must be driven by a large amp to mate correctly with the 6", but I don't know the start/stop-factor of the BW 15 " element vs the PD 15" mentioned above.

Hi,

All reviewers ... . My double JBL 2226 work fine up to 1kHz. There is no point in crossing over at a lower frequency if not for the cabinet size. Because of the latter I investigated a row of (decent**) 12" pro drivers. The outcome is easy to tell. They were all extremly good when used at home. By far better than my hearing. You will never experience distortion or any other anoyance irregardless the level You drive them - low bass included! A room of 50 square meters, 3,5meters hight could be driven to (I mean it, it makes You panic) earsplitting 100dB with HD2 below 1%, HD3 below 0.5%. The human ears distorts higher at these levels! No higher modes near to any significance.

The conclusion is as simple as promised: all in the row were more or a bit less than equivalent to perfect. May be it's by incidence, but those 12" pros fit perfectly to the needs in home fidelity, if equalizing is in reach. For the lowest registers a multiple sub arrangement is favourable. Lets say add 3 to 5 pcs of 8" bass cabinets.

If You wanna go for a sort of perfection that is beyond nessecity I'm afraid it's up to You to refine Your concept first. To swap a driver against an other wouldn't do that much than example given multisubs.

so long

** decent = Beyma SM112, B&C 12NDL76, B&C 12ND64 (140$$), JBL 2206H, RCF 12G300, 18sound 12LW1300, 18sound 12ND930(300$$), 18sound 12ND830 and a lot I forgot, and some cheaper stuff that did surprisingly well: Thomann The Box 12-280 (60$$).

 

[badman]

2226H is in it's lease useful range from a THD perspective between 600 and 1kHz (ignoring the nasty peak at 1.5kHz above). Limiting it to 500Hz or somewhat lower would help avoid much of the distortion in the motor, and prevent issues with beamwidth. Better to keep it out of breakup mode by crossing it lower where possible, unless you're trying to do a Woof+horn setup..

Hi,

All reviewers ... . My double JBL 2226 work fine up to 1kHz. There is no point in crossing over at a lower frequency if not for the cabinet size. Because of the latter I investigated a row of (decent**) 12" pro drivers. The outcome is easy to tell. They were all extremly good when used at home. By far better than my hearing. You will never experience distortion or any other anoyance irregardless the level You drive them - low bass included! A room of 50 square meters, 3,5meters hight could be driven to (I mean it, it makes You panic) earsplitting 100dB with HD2 below 1%, HD3 below 0.5%. The human ears distorts higher at these levels! No higher modes near to any significance.

The conclusion is as simple as promised: all in the row were more or a bit less than equivalent to perfect. May be it's by incidence, but those 12" pros fit perfectly to the needs in home fidelity, if equalizing is in reach. For the lowest registers a multiple sub arrangement is favourable. Lets say add 3 to 5 pcs of 8" bass cabinets.

If You wanna go for a sort of perfection that is beyond nessecity I'm afraid it's up to You to refine Your concept first. To swap a driver against an other wouldn't do that much than example given multisubs.

so long

** decent = Beyma SM112, B&C 12NDL76, B&C 12ND64 (140$$), JBL 2206H, RCF 12G300, 18sound 12LW1300, 18sound 12ND930(300$$), 18sound 12ND830 and a lot I forgot, and some cheaper stuff that did surprisingly well: Thomann The Box 12-280 (60$$).

 

[Audiodidakt]

Again: thanks for all inputs!

My plan for the 2226H is to use it from around 200 Hz and downwards.

Midbass - from 200 Hz and upwards - is more difficult and I change my mind constantly. P.t. one of the Volts mentioned by Derek above is in the lead, but I have also seriously considered elements from Lambda, Beyma, B&C, PD etc. Also the JA8008 from Jantzen Audio is a serious contender.

For tweeter I thought everything was settled, after reading through Shin's LTG-thread: Raal ribbons (either the 15 or its smaller brother 7-10 (the smaller mated with the JA8008 8" seems like a good option). After Dereks comments above I have been more in doubt.

I totally like the TPL-150 when it comes to frequence-range, linearity (at least is the baffel is 40+ cm wide), impedans etc, but I have problems with the lack of vertical disperision.

The Raals do not have the same extended frequence-range downwards, but seem to have vertical disperision far beyond the TPL.

I am not experienced in these matters but I would believe that lack of vertical disperision:
Pro: - gives better control
Con: - limits the listening area and gives a more "boxy" sound? May be a backward ambience tweeter from around 3000 Hz an upwards can help?

 

[tinitus]

I am not experienced in these matters but I would believe that lack of vertical disperision:
Pro: - gives better control
Con: - limits the listening area and gives a more "boxy" sound?

It means that your ideal listening height should be in horisontal level with the ribbon
Which could compromise the mid driver
But also depends on crossover

 

[John_E_Janowitz]

Re: Reply to private email.

Hi Gisle,

The Volt BM25.1 and the Volt BM2500.4 are the two best drivers I have used in the 100Hz to 2Khz range, they really are beautiful sounding and beautifully made pro drivers.
The differences between them are basically the 251.4 has a lower Mms (28g) and corresponding higher(97 dB) efficiency. It sacrifices power handling and will have more thermal compression due to its 50mm voice coil. The BM2500.4 has a 75mm voice coil and a 48g Mms, but a higher BL helps keep the efficiency up to 92 dB. The lower Fs 32Hz 2500.4 gives a richer lower mid as well as a lower -3 dB point in the bass.

The volt drivers look ok, but looking at BM2500.4 the inductance is still .9mH, representative of not having a shorting ring. It appears nothing is done to lower inductance, linearize inductance, or eliminate flux modulation. This is a 92dB efficiency studio range driver. It would be comparable to our TD10X. The difference is we have 1/3 the inductance. Inductance is linear. Flux is fixed in the gap as it needs to be. We have 14mm Xmax vs 8mm and about 4x the real world power handling.

The 251.4 would compare more to our TD10M. Again the same things apply regarding linear inductance and flux modulation. We have .2mH inductance vs .8mH. Xmax is 6mm vs 2.5mm for the Volt and we have about 4x the power handling.

John