How do you get good imaging? - Page 2 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 31st January 2009, 02:46 PM   #11
Tenson is offline Tenson  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kent
Depends if the soundstageing and ambiance is on the recording. If it is, then the system that has fewer reflections and good imaging can do it. But if it is not, it won't. A system that uses the room to add soundstage and ambiance can have it for all recordings, but not such good imaging.

IMO!
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2009, 04:37 PM   #12
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Hi,

i also think both should go hand in hand.
With some music, there will be no so sound stage at all,
and one should not expect from a speaker to add this.

Sometimes i listen to (historical) electronic music ...
with some early Kraftwerk songs like "Metropolis" the sounds
are very present, there is nearly no virtual "space". Although
some sounds - especially transients - come from a defined
position between the speakers ( you should have the feeling,
that you can grab and feel them right in front of you, if your
speaker is any good at reproducing transients.).

Good recordings of chamber music may have realistic sound stage
and "precise" imaging too. Sometimes singers and instruments
can be located at an absolute position as well as relative to
each other.

With orchestral material, "imaging" is often not that precise.
How precise is "imaging" when listening live in a concert
hall ?

Sometimes i shake my head, when i read in hifi mags:

"Speaker A puts the singer exactly 1m in front of the piano,
bla bla ... while with speaker B the singer seems to stand exactly
in front of it ... bla .. This is why speaker A is unbeatable in
imaging bla bla ... ! "

Such things are hogwash IMO. Just artifacts. Most recording
techniqes are not able to reproduce, what the authors of
such articles like to hear or what they want us make believe
we should hear.

There may be such subjective differences with different speakers,
and certain recordings, yes.

But we should listen to some dozen or hundred recordings,
before estimating what the speaker does to them.

Soundstage and imaging should go together. But again:
When entering a concert hall with a blindfold, dependent on
the style of hall, please point to the solo instrument playing,
then take of the blindfold.

Is your "imaging" exact enough to shoot the violinist with eyes
shaded ?

Sorry for that, we should honour musicians, just a typification.

Cheers
__________________
Oliver, RFZ believer (?)
www.dipol-audio.de
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2009, 06:01 PM   #13
frugal-phile(tm)
diyAudio Moderator
 
planet10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Victoria, BC, NA, Sol III
Blog Entries: 5
!st, soundstaging & imaging in my book are synonyms... how the speaker creates an illusion of a 3D space & the speakers dissappear.

Away from sidewalls is not absoulutely needed... in my buddy Chris' tiny mancave with the speakers (Fonkens) off the wall by 20 cm, with a good recording the entire end of the room explodes outwards.

Getting a speaker to image requires removal of anything the speaker soes to attract attention to itself, cone noise, box resonances, time smear back thru the cone edge diffration all have to be minimized.

The speaker needs to be able to keep the harmonic envelope in tact, and it needs to have good downward dynamic range -- most of the clues that produce the illusion of space are small and buried way down,

dave
__________________
community sites t-linespeakers.org, frugal-horn.com, frugal-phile.com ........ commercial site planet10-HiFi
p10-hifi forum here at diyA
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2009, 09:21 PM   #14
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
thank you, i guess understand what you mean and i agree !
__________________
Oliver, RFZ believer (?)
www.dipol-audio.de
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2009, 11:55 PM   #15
blue934 is offline blue934  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
blue934's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Salmon Arm, B.C.
Quote:
Originally posted by planet10
[BThe speaker needs to be able to keep the harmonic envelope in tact, and it needs to have good downward dynamic range -- most of the clues that produce the illusion of space are small and buried way down,

dave [/B]

dave, could you expound on this please?, not sure what you mean by downward dynamic range.

blue934
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2009, 07:22 AM   #16
frugal-phile(tm)
diyAudio Moderator
 
planet10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Victoria, BC, NA, Sol III
Blog Entries: 5
Quote:
Originally posted by blue934
not sure what you mean by downward dynamic range.
It is almost something you have to hear to really Grok*. It is the ability of a device to reproduce information way down in level from where the main stuff is... for the sake of a number, lets say 30-50 dB down. It is here that many of the subtle clues that make a device image live.

In a speaker for instance it is one of the reasons i don't like MDF. It stores energy and slowly oozes it out at low levels burying all this subtle but very important information.

*(that this is so was driven home by 2 people with my EnABLed drivers, who withing 24 hours, and completely independently exclaimed "I now know what you all mean by "downward dynamics"." Here is one of them http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...65#post1719265)

dave
__________________
community sites t-linespeakers.org, frugal-horn.com, frugal-phile.com ........ commercial site planet10-HiFi
p10-hifi forum here at diyA
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2009, 03:51 AM   #17
Pano is offline Pano  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
Pano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Milliways
Blog Entries: 4
Quote:
Originally posted by planet10
... for the sake of a number, lets say 30-50 dB down. It is here that many of the subtle clues that make a device image live.
That certainly has a lot to do with it. A buddy of mine calls this a "quiet speaker." Strange term, but I know what he means. No noise extraneous to the signal. Few speakers are like that.
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2009, 04:01 AM   #18
frugal-phile(tm)
diyAudio Moderator
 
planet10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Victoria, BC, NA, Sol III
Blog Entries: 5
Quote:
Originally posted by panomaniac
Few speakers are like that.
Guess i'm spoiled

dave
__________________
community sites t-linespeakers.org, frugal-horn.com, frugal-phile.com ........ commercial site planet10-HiFi
p10-hifi forum here at diyA
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2009, 04:20 AM   #19
diyAudio Member
 
tsmith1315's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Doerun, GA
Quote:
Originally posted by planet10


It is almost something you have to hear to really Grok*. It is the ability of a device to reproduce information way down in level from where the main stuff is... for the sake of a number, lets say 30-50 dB down. It is here that many of the subtle clues that make a device image live.


A visual analogy may be the way subtle changes in light/shadow/reflection can define an object from a similarly shaped blob and help secure it in perspective.

Not that blobs aren't objects too, I wouldn't want to offend.
__________________
Tim
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th February 2009, 06:22 PM   #20
dazydee is offline dazydee  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
dazydee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Near Hamburg
From my experience I can say, that all Full-Range Speakers, that are not of the cheapest crappy kind, have a very good imaging. Small ones with narrow or no baffle being the best.

The CSS FR125S in a spherical enclosure (see Avatar) creates the best imaging I ever experienced.


I had 2 kinds of Omnis (FR with cone) that fared very well, but where more sensitive to placement than the direct radiating FRs I owned.

Have not tried Dipole yet.


For all other concepts I have not seen any relation of imaging to a feature of design. Some have it, a lot of them don't.
__________________
Upgrade your grey matter, 'cause one day it may matter
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
imaging jj Multi-Way 2 5th July 2009 12:30 PM
Imaging... retiredmxer Multi-Way 19 21st April 2007 04:12 AM
Horn Imaging gpsmithii Full Range 1 3rd June 2005 03:20 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:17 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2