Using 12" guitar element as high efficiency midrange?

Elias · 27th January 2009, 04:16 PM

Hello,

In seeking of high efficiency midrange for home hifi, how about using some of the guitar elements as midrange somewhere between 200Hz-2kHz? When crossing low enough at 1-2kHz can avoid most of the cone breakup.

For example some of the Celestion seems promising

http://professional.celestion.com/gu...etail.asp?ID=4

Claimed efficiency 100dB seems tempting for a small tube amp

Any experience you would like to share?

- Elias

bigwill · 27th January 2009, 04:18 PM

There is a guitar speaker by eminence that makes a good mid range as reported by a few people here, I think it's called the "Lil Buddy"

AdamThorne · 27th January 2009, 04:42 PM

I've heard some people dig the "Tone Tubby" driver in this way, but I have no personal experience with it.

Saturnus · 27th January 2009, 05:10 PM

One should note the high Qts of these drivers. They are best suited for OB purposes.

CLS · 28th January 2009, 12:06 AM

Some professionals seem not like this idea because of such drivers tend to have too short of Xmax and cones with severe breakups, thus bad linearity and poor stop band behaviors (especially when play loud).

I think, choosing the right one and using it under limited bandwidth and SPL, the problems above maybe not so serious. (Be careful with those published frequency response charts. The real breakup peaks may probably be much worse than they look on paper. )

I am experimenting with such setup right now. The driver is Emimence Legend 125 (the wrong one), which I've already owned and used on and off for some years. This model comes with some broad and huge breakup peaks (10dB or the likes) centered around 2.5kHz. So, using it as is is almost unbearable. Some mods to the driver are needed.

These are done to the drivers (for the time being):
1. cut the dust cap and insert a phase plug onto the pole peice.
2. apply PVA glue on both side of the cone.
3. cut the paper surround at some partilcular areas to soften the overall suspension.
4. apply silicon oil on the spider for furthur reducing the stiffness

After these mods, the breakup peaks seem largely tamed. I examined this by impedance scan and simple RTA, and finally, ears. Now they are playing music (other than electric guitar, of course) and quite pleasing.

The cone is folded straight profile with corrugated press. It's light and stiff inherently. Now it's furthur hardened by the PVA glue. Within the range I'm using (160~3kHz, OB'ed), it's dynamics and details are quite good.

It lost some sensitivity on the lower mids because of those cuts on surround (sound waves on front and back of the cone are short circuited here). So I'll do something on it later.

The whole thing is on going and not completed yet. I'll update here if you're interested.

jamikl · 28th January 2009, 02:14 AM

Elias, did you look at the 10" Celestions. I can't remember whether it was guitar series or PA series. The ferrite version was actually flatter on paper than the neo version. Around 97 Db.

I was interested in this one but could not find a price for it in Australia. I am now looking at a 10" PHL, around 100 Db, available here though a bit pricey.
jamikl

ttan98 · 28th January 2009, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jamikl
Elias, did you look at the 10" Celestions. I can't remember whether it was guitar series or PA series. The ferrite version was actually flatter on paper than the neo version. Around 97 Db.

I was interested in this one but could not find a price for it in Australia. I am now looking at a 10" PHL, around 100 Db, available here though a bit pricey.
jamikl

you can find various Celestion models here:

http://www.svvintageamps.com/

I believe they send overseas as well. Cheaper than PHY.

Cheers.

sreten · 28th January 2009, 11:14 AM

Hi,

PA drivers are far more sensible for midrange than guitar drivers.
Distortion profiles are completely different, you want the former.

/sreten.

Elias · 28th January 2009, 12:13 PM

Hello,

Quote:

Originally posted by jamikl
Elias, did you look at the 10" Celestions. I can't remember whether it was guitar series or PA series. The ferrite version was actually flatter on paper than the neo version. Around 97 Db.

You mean 10" truvox?
http://professional.celestion.com/pr...etail.asp?ID=7

I've been looking at this too. There seems to be some link to Monacor, however specs are a bit different
http://www.monacor.de/typo3/index.ph...4&spr=EN&typ=u

- Elias

Elias · 28th January 2009, 12:27 PM

Hello,

Quote:

Originally posted by sreten
PA drivers are far more sensible for midrange than guitar drivers.
Distortion profiles are completely different, you want the former.

I'm looking for relative big (10-12") cone with very low cone mass, and high sensitivity. PA drivers seems to have heavy cone mass, instead guitar drivers seems to fit in here. Vintage appearance does not hurt either

Propably it's very true that distortion is very different. However, I've never seen any published distortion plots of any guitar drivers, so direct comparison to PA drivers is impossible at this point.

- Elias

27th January 2009, 04:16 PM	#1
Elias diyAudio Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Where you live	Using 12" guitar element as high efficiency midrange? Hello, In seeking of high efficiency midrange for home hifi, how about using some of the guitar elements as midrange somewhere between 200Hz-2kHz? When crossing low enough at 1-2kHz can avoid most of the cone breakup. For example some of the Celestion seems promising http://professional.celestion.com/gu...etail.asp?ID=4 Claimed efficiency 100dB seems tempting for a small tube amp Any experience you would like to share? - Elias __________________ Home page If our hearing would be accurate, we would be hearing two loudspeakers.

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27th January 2009, 04:18 PM	#2
bigwill General Nuisance diyAudio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: UK	There is a guitar speaker by eminence that makes a good mid range as reported by a few people here, I think it's called the "Lil Buddy"

27th January 2009, 04:42 PM	#3
AdamThorne diyAudio Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA	I've heard some people dig the "Tone Tubby" driver in this way, but I have no personal experience with it.

27th January 2009, 05:10 PM	#4
Saturnus diyAudio Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark	One should note the high Qts of these drivers. They are best suited for OB purposes.

28th January 2009, 12:06 AM	#5
CLS diyAudio Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Taiwan	Some professionals seem not like this idea because of such drivers tend to have too short of Xmax and cones with severe breakups, thus bad linearity and poor stop band behaviors (especially when play loud). I think, choosing the right one and using it under limited bandwidth and SPL, the problems above maybe not so serious. (Be careful with those published frequency response charts. The real breakup peaks may probably be much worse than they look on paper. ) I am experimenting with such setup right now. The driver is Emimence Legend 125 (the wrong one), which I've already owned and used on and off for some years. This model comes with some broad and huge breakup peaks (10dB or the likes) centered around 2.5kHz. So, using it as is is almost unbearable. Some mods to the driver are needed. These are done to the drivers (for the time being): 1. cut the dust cap and insert a phase plug onto the pole peice. 2. apply PVA glue on both side of the cone. 3. cut the paper surround at some partilcular areas to soften the overall suspension. 4. apply silicon oil on the spider for furthur reducing the stiffness After these mods, the breakup peaks seem largely tamed. I examined this by impedance scan and simple RTA, and finally, ears. Now they are playing music (other than electric guitar, of course) and quite pleasing. The cone is folded straight profile with corrugated press. It's light and stiff inherently. Now it's furthur hardened by the PVA glue. Within the range I'm using (160~3kHz, OB'ed), it's dynamics and details are quite good. It lost some sensitivity on the lower mids because of those cuts on surround (sound waves on front and back of the cone are short circuited here). So I'll do something on it later. The whole thing is on going and not completed yet. I'll update here if you're interested.

28th January 2009, 02:14 AM	#6
jamikl diyAudio Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Melbourne	Elias, did you look at the 10" Celestions. I can't remember whether it was guitar series or PA series. The ferrite version was actually flatter on paper than the neo version. Around 97 Db. I was interested in this one but could not find a price for it in Australia. I am now looking at a 10" PHL, around 100 Db, available here though a bit pricey. jamikl

28th January 2009, 11:14 AM	#8
sreten diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Brighton UK	Hi, PA drivers are far more sensible for midrange than guitar drivers. Distortion profiles are completely different, you want the former. /sreten.