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Old 29th January 2009, 06:50 PM   #21
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Thank you very much for everyone's response so far. However, I'm worried that this is turning into a "post your favorite tweeter" thread, which wasn't really my intention.

I'm interested in anyone who has actually heard (and has experience with) the R2904/7000 and believes that a different tweeter sounds better - and can post what makes it sound better. It sounds like a lot of people here have used various tweeters that they've liked, but nobody has really used the R2904/7000. Either that, or you're hiding. Thanks!

SG
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Old 29th January 2009, 10:25 PM   #22
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SG,

Interesting thread and discussions. I am also interested in obtaining an answer to the original question.

However, I can't see the possibility. For the same tweeter, if you use different crossover networks therefore having different frequency response profiles, the same tweeter sounds completely differently.

How can you subjectively tell if the 2904/7000 is better than, say, the Seas Millenium and Dynaudio Esotar (I have both of the later)? I could make them sound cold, warm, sparkle, smooth, airy, dull by just changing a resistor or a capacitor.

A fraction of a dB difference between 800Hz to 8kHz can be very audible. In real life, unless you could use the same speaker set up except the tweeters, and you could make two tweeters to produce exactly the same frequency response or at least within 1/10th of a dB, you really couldn't subjectively tell which tweeter is better.

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Bill
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Old 30th January 2009, 12:12 AM   #23
Jay_WJ is offline Jay_WJ  United States
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I agree with Bill.

There's no way you can sensibly compare raw drivers based on subjective experience. The only reasonable way is to compare their linear/nonlinear distortion measurements performed under the same condition. Most of dome/ring radiator tweeters have been tested by Zaph. I often see people misinterpret Zaph's harmonic distortion plots without considering all the details of his measurement condition.

Among tweeters he has tested so far, the lowest distortion units regardless of price are the Scan-Speak 6600 (same as the new 6620), 7100, and 7000. Their difference in harmonic distortion levels are statistically indistinguishable, at least in his measurements. If I asked to choose only one of them, my pick is the 6600, not because of its lower price but because of its better linear response. My last pick will be the 7000 not because of its highest price but because of its (possibly) higher SPL distortion due to the smaller ring Sd than domes. This is not only my opinion but also consistent with what Zaph himself mentioned at online forums (not diyAudio these days).

The Peerless 810921 and the Seas 27 series are excellent, but not quite up to the level of these Scan-Speak especially w.r.t. 3rd order distortion products.

-jAy
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Old 30th January 2009, 01:28 AM   #24
Jay_WJ is offline Jay_WJ  United States
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Just briefly why the 7100 and the 6600 are better than the 7000 from a nonlinear distortion standpoint. Even under Zaph's moderate, 90 dB / 1 m SPL condition, a sign of the 7000's high SPL strain starts to occur in its 2nd order distortion product at 2 kHz and below. Compare its 2nd order distortion level to the 7100's between 1 kHz - 2.5 kHz. The difference is consistently about 5 dB.

-jAy
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Old 30th January 2009, 03:32 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by HiFiNutNut
A fraction of a dB difference between 800Hz to 8kHz can be very audible. In real life, unless you could use the same speaker set up except the tweeters, and you could make two tweeters to produce exactly the same frequency response or at least within 1/10th of a dB, you really couldn't subjectively tell which tweeter is better.

Regards,
Bill
Agreed. Which is why if you're very experienced using a particular tweeter, you've already spent time finding an optimal crossover frequency, slope, and level adjustment. I've spent time playing with different tweeters, often using a 48db/oct digital crossover, and there are definite non-subtle quality differences. But rather than buying all the tweeters myself, I'm hoping someone else can share their experience.

SG
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Old 30th January 2009, 03:45 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay_WJ
Just briefly why the 7100 and the 6600 are better than the 7000 from a nonlinear distortion standpoint. Even under Zaph's moderate, 90 dB / 1 m SPL condition, a sign of the 7000's high SPL strain starts to occur in its 2nd order distortion product at 2 kHz and below. Compare its 2nd order distortion level to the 7100's between 1 kHz - 2.5 kHz. The difference is consistently about 5 dB.

-jAy
I'm familiar with Zaph's tweeter mishmash, but I am not convinced that harmonic distortion, which I think is often overread from that site, is the major determinant of sound quality. I believe that once HD is below a certain level for each fundamental in each range, it's probably not relevant anymore. Furthermore, IMD (which is even more intrusive sounding than HD) is not even provided by Zaph. I think distortion is great to measure, but there's no way you can rank tweeters based on it. I'd be curious to see what other people think however.

As an aside, I've seen at a handful of DIY and professional designs that use the 7000, and most high-pass at around 2.2-4kHz with 24db/oct rolloff. So looking at the 1-2.5kHz range for F2 HD probably isn't less important.

SG
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Old 30th January 2009, 04:21 AM   #27
Jay_WJ is offline Jay_WJ  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by smellygas


I'm familiar with Zaph's tweeter mishmash, but I am not convinced that harmonic distortion, which I think is often overread from that site, is the major determinant of sound quality. I believe that once HD is below a certain level for each fundamental in each range, it's probably not relevant anymore. Furthermore, IMD (which is even more intrusive sounding than HD) is not even provided by Zaph. I think distortion is great to measure, but there's no way you can rank tweeters based on it. I'd be curious to see what other people think however.

As an aside, I've seen at a handful of DIY and professional designs that use the 7000, and most high-pass at around 2.2-4kHz with 24db/oct rolloff. So looking at the 1-2.5kHz range for F2 HD probably isn't less important.

SG
4kHz with 24db/oct rolloff with the 7000? You're kidding! What a waste if you understand what I mean. I'd never buy any of these tweeters unless I were to use it with LR4 @ 2 kHz (or below) or with LR2 @ 2.5 kHz (or below). Distortion performance between 1.5 kHz - 4 kHz is the definitive characteristic of any tweeter. Tall order distortion products generated by fundamentals above it are in the frequency range to which our ear is either not very sensitive (> 12 kHz) or can't hear at all (> 20 kHz).

And you should understand why Zaph chose to post only the single tone HD sweeps although he can (see entries titled "Using trending in HD sweeps" and "Tweeter IMD plots" in his Tidbits page). You said you're familiar with Zaph's tweeter mishmash. How many different types of distortion measurements have you seen? If you compare single tone sweeps and multi-tone IMD plots of same drivers, you'll see distortion performance indicated by them is strongly correlated to each other virtually 99.9 % of the time. IMD is simply another type of nonlinear distortion, which is in practice very strongly correlated to what is shown in single tone HD sweeps. I see people often times want to dismiss Zaph's HD sweeps in favor of IMD measurements. This is largely a misguided idea.

If you're in doubt, start by comparing Zaph's single tone sweeps and Mark K's IMD type measurements. They measured many same drivers. See them and digest them. You will see what I mean.

-jAy
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Old 30th January 2009, 04:27 AM   #28
navin is offline navin  India
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Quote:
Originally posted by smellygas


This is helpful. I've heard someone else preferring the Raal ribbons too. Has anyone else had personal experience with the R2904/7000 ring radiator (the flagship SS tweeter) and found a different tweeter that sounded better?

SG
I have heard the Vifa XT ring radiator which I believe is a derivative of the SS ring radiator and I did not care to much for it. I did not measure it and to be honest I could not put my finger on what I did not like (the response could well have been due to the XO or integration with the Vifa PL woofer it was mated to).


Quote:
Originally posted by smellygas
I'm interested in anyone who has actually heard (and has experience with) the R2904/7000 and believes that a different tweeter sounds better - and can post what makes it sound better.
Quote:
Originally posted by smellygas

I've spent time playing with different tweeters, often using a 48db/oct digital crossover, and there are definite non-subtle quality differences. But rather than buying all the tweeters myself, I'm hoping someone else can share their experience.
SG
Each of these tweeters are in the $200+ category. Outside of those who are professionally associated with the industry I dont think too many of us get the occasion to play with more than a few of there drivers. I have heard the Esotar, Revelator, the G2Si etc.. but certainly not enough drivers to pass emphatic judgement.

My wish list however would include the Neos, RAAL, the Illuminator and others.
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Old 30th January 2009, 05:05 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay_WJ
[B]

4kHz with 24db/oct rolloff with the 7000? You're kidding! What a waste if you understand what I mean. I'd never buy any of these tweeters unless I were to use it with LR4 @ 2 kHz (or below) or with LR2 @ 2.5 kHz (or below).
Your opinion seems to be at odds with many successful and well-regarded commercial kits and loudspeakers that high-pass the 7000 at 2.2-4kHz. I have not seen any reputable design that crosses this driver over at 2kHz or below, which suggests that your experience with the 7000 is not likely first hand.

Quote:
Distortion performance between 1.5 kHz - 4 kHz is the definitive characteristic of any tweeter. Tall order distortion products generated by fundamentals above it are in the frequency range to which our ear is either not very sensitive (> 12 kHz) or can't hear at all (> 20 kHz).
That's absurd. By your reasoning, if I were to crossover a $10 Radio Shack tweeter and a R2904/7000 at, say 12kHz, with a 48db/octave slope, they would sound identical. After all, neither would have very much output in the 1.5-4kHz range and thus no audible distortion in that range you believe is so "defining" (and therefore no audible distortion in the harmonics of that freq range either).

SG
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Old 30th January 2009, 05:42 AM   #30
simon5 is offline simon5  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by smellygas
Your opinion seems to be at odds with many successful and well-regarded commercial kits and loudspeakers that high-pass the 7000 at 2.2-4kHz. I have not seen any reputable design that crosses this driver over at 2kHz or below, which suggests that your experience with the 7000 is not likely first hand.



That's absurd. By your reasoning, if I were to crossover a $10 Radio Shack tweeter and a R2904/7000 at, say 12kHz, with a 48db/octave slope, they would sound identical. After all, neither would have very much output in the 1.5-4kHz range and thus no audible distortion in that range you believe is so "defining" (and therefore no audible distortion in the harmonics of that freq range either).

SG
Commercial speakers are commercial speakers, made to make money, not to sound good.

I agree 100% with Jay_WJ. A good tweeter is a tweeter that can be crossed low. For example, the cheap 27TBFC/G can be crossed at 1.5 kHz LR4 due to low distortion, if you don't need too high SPL.

Why spend 200$ on a tweeter to play 4 kHz and higher ? Almost all tweeters are impeccable performers above 4 kHz, even the 5$ tweeters.
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