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Old 31st January 2009, 08:56 PM   #101
cuibono is offline cuibono  United States
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Old 1st February 2009, 02:13 PM   #102
Pan is offline Pan  Sweden
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We mesured a speaker yesterday with Earthworks QTC1 and Behringer ECM8000 and they gave different distortion results with higher readings of the ECM8000.

I swapped the QTC1 for another QTC1 and got identical results and did this to check that the positioning of the mic's was close enough not to mock up the results.

Unfortunately there was some beer and wine involved so I saved the same file two times and therefore I can't share the measurements. But in due time I will have the chance to compare again and will share the results then.

Regarding simulations, please also consider what will happen (strongly dependent on phase) when a speaker with asymetrical distortion is measured by a mic with asymetrical disortion when the even order harmonics are close in level.


/Peter
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Old 2nd February 2009, 06:38 AM   #103
Shaun is offline Shaun  South Africa
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Interesting discussion going on here, but can have a thread split? It's now about accuracy of driver distortion measurements.
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Old 2nd February 2009, 08:33 AM   #104
simon5 is offline simon5  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by smellygas
Your grasp of English is worse than I thought. When you draw a hard conclusion (i.e. the 6600 is better than the 7000) from your own made-up theory (i.e. otherwise, Zaph would have chosen the 7000 instead for his Madisound design), THAT is speculation. I provide equally likely alternate explanations (i.e. perhaps Madisound contracted Zaph to make a kit with the 6600, regardless of which driver was better), to illustrate that you cannot draw conclusions from speculation. I'm sure you're a very intelligent person, but I don't think we're discussing this at quite the same intellectual level. I really shouldn't have to explain what I just did. From this point on, with you specifically, I won't respond to anything that deals with your speculative theories. It's a waste of time because I don't think you understand.


Now it's not only my bad english, I also can't understand... You don't know me and you don't know how much I understand English. You are "speculating" on my English level. You don't seem to understand me on the other hand. I'm starting to think that you fail to analyze correctly what I say for some reason. Maybe I'm doing something wrong in your viewpoint. Maybe I'm going too fast and not giving you enough context so you have problems following me. I'm not always doing perfectly organized posts, I'm like that in real life, often jumping from a subject to another and that could be hard to follow on a forum. I quote you, then I answer your quote. If it doesn't make sense to you, maybe it would be a good idea to check what your quote was about, since your quote is about my own earlier text, maybe it would be a good idea to read either my earlier post or your earlier post again. If I need to put my quote, then your quote of my quote, then my answer to your quote about my ealier quote so you can understand, tell me... (hard to follow here, but I think you can understand this very well !) You can also ask for explanations when you don't understand me and I will reformulate it. Every time you don't understand someone, do you put his English at fault ? I don't think so since I'm also sure you're a very intelligent person. Ever heard of : "Don't shoot the messenger" ? Instead of argumenting with me, you prefer to resort to attacking me or diverting attention instead of attacking my argumentation.

Now, I will reply to other points in your quote. I will divide my argumentation in two parts, two different viewpoints. I think I found out where the problem is. Tell me if I'm wrong please.

Now, from a certain point of view, you are not speculating in that specific issue because you want to illustrate your point that Zaph may have been influenced by Madisound to make design choices. Then I could say that I didn't speculate either in that specific issue and I didn't draw a hard conclusion, since I used the words "maybe to him". "Because, maybe to him, the 6600 sounds better than the 7000, or the difference is negligible." Without those words, I agree with you that it would be a hard conclusion and pure speculation. That sentence only means that maybe in his point of view, the 6600 sounds better than the 7000, or maybe it does not.

From another certain point of view, yes, I'm speculating that Zaph did take the 6600 over the 7000 due to superior performance. On the other hand, I'm saying you are not better than me, since you speculate that it could be Madisound that made the choice mandatory. We both don't know, we both speculate. If you don't like speculation, why are you also using it against me ? I often like to speculate and I don't mind if you also speculate. On the other hand, don't bash me for speculating, since you use the same argumentation tactic. If it's good for you, it's good for me.

Was the problem there ? Thanks.

I would like to add that the speculated 6600 superiority over the 7000 wasn't my idea. It came from Jay. I just wanted to add that maybe Zaph thinks the same as Jay. It's not a conclusion that I want to do myself (6600 vs 7000 debate), since to me, both are high priced tweeters so I would be a bit harsh towards both the 6600 and the 7000 (and many other high priced tweeters).

Quote:
I didn't understand any of that.
I will say it in other words then, and use more words to put you in context. I said that in my opinion, measurements can predict quite accurately what a tweeter will sound like. I said that the Dayton ND20FB "could" sound the same, or even better than a 7000 over 4 kHz. I didn't say that a Dayton ND20FB will sound the same over 4 kHz. I said a Dayton ND20FB "could" be a fair comparison to a 7000 if crossed at 4 kHz. I didn't say that a Dayton ND20FB will win the comparison. As you said yourself, I predict (using your words from your earlier quote) a Dayton ND20FB "could" sound the same, or even win versus a 7000 when crossed over 4 kHz.

Quote:
Well you're entitled to your opinion. If you think you can determine which speaker sounds best based on evaluating a limited number of measurements published using low-end equipment on an internet website, that's fine. People have a lot of beliefs here, some of which may or may not be true.
That's fine with me. I agree that the equipment is not high end and the tests are limited. On the other hand, all tests are done with the same equipment and in the same conditions, so the evaluation can still be used to compare tweeters measured in those conditions against each other using the limited tests, to produce valid results. You need to take into account the shortcomings of the comparison, but it can help you alot.

Quote:
simon5, thanks for trying to answer my original question. I think that it is very nice that you feel that a $20 tweeter could sound better than the 7000, and that you based this on zero personal experience, zero listening, and ONLY on a very narrow reading of a some measurements done on a website. Thanks, but that's not what I'm looking for.

SG
You're welcome. I just want to add : "I think that it is very nice that you feel that a $20 tweeter could sound better than the 7000 if crossed over 4 kHz with a well built crossover network". (bold text added by me) I want to add this, because I'm not foolish enough to think that a 20$ tweeter is better all around than a 7000. For example, you can cross a 7000 very low easily and I wouldn't do that with a 20$ tweeter. I just think that a 20$ tweeter can perform just as good or better than a 7000, on a limited bandwidth in certain conditions.

Good luck on your search.
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Old 2nd February 2009, 09:17 AM   #105
simon5 is offline simon5  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pan
We mesured a speaker yesterday with Earthworks QTC1 and Behringer ECM8000 and they gave different distortion results with higher readings of the ECM8000.

I swapped the QTC1 for another QTC1 and got identical results and did this to check that the positioning of the mic's was close enough not to mock up the results.

/Peter
Hi Pan,

I find that very interesting. I would like to see those results. Maybe you could compare a few speakers together, to see if even with the Behringer ECM8000, you could draw accurate conclusions about the sound quality. I mean, maybe if the readings are higher, the results would be still coherent, since maybe even if the microphone distortion and the speaker distortion are in the same order of magnitude, you can still interpret one speaker as better than the other. That would mean that Zaph method may work, since all results are made with the same microphone, even if it's inferior in quality.

Since you seem very knowledgeable in the area of microphones, in your opinion, does that Earthworks QTC1 have some "more affordable" competition ? That looks like a very fine microphone, but it's much more expensive versus a Behringer ECM8000. Is there a compromise to be found ?

Also, sorry to annoy you again. Did you see the first part of my last reply ? I would like to see the results you published about the Accuton diamond tweeters please, it interests me alot, those diamond tweeters always ticked my curiosity.

Thank you very much and sorry again !
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Old 2nd February 2009, 02:32 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally posted by simon5

You're welcome. I just want to add : "I think that it is very nice that you feel that a $20 tweeter could sound better than the 7000 if crossed over 4 kHz with a well built crossover network". (bold text added by me) I want to add this, because I'm not foolish enough to think that a 20$ tweeter is better all around than a 7000. For example, you can cross a 7000 very low easily and I wouldn't do that with a 20$ tweeter. I just think that a 20$ tweeter can perform just as good or better than a 7000, on a limited bandwidth in certain conditions.

Good luck on your search.
And once again, thank you for your input. I still think it is very nice that you feel that a $20 tweeter could sound better than the 7000 (when crossed over at 4kHz with a well-built crossover) based on zero listening tests, zero experience, and your own interpretation of a set of measurements printed on an internet website. If that is sufficient information for you to make decisions regarding your projects, that's great. For me, it's not.

SG
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Old 2nd February 2009, 05:27 PM   #107
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Gentlemen that's enough. I am surprised there are not better things to keep you entertained on this site and I am strongly recommending we move on and back to topic. In other words, no more please.

I will keep an eye on this thread for those wishing to continue in this most ungentlemanly manner. It's been a long time since I put someone in the sinbin and I'd like to keep it that way.

Fair enough?
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Old 2nd February 2009, 06:57 PM   #108
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So back on topic. My original question was essentially, can anyone who is personally experienced with the R2904/7000 suggest a different tweeter that sounded better to him/her?

Note: this isn't a "post your favorite tweeter" thread
Note: please, no more debate about distortion measurements being the sole determinant of sound quality
Note: please, no other off-topic debates

So far, only one person, Inertial, has really answered the question.

SG
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Old 2nd February 2009, 07:07 PM   #109
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Cheers,

Paolo
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Old 3rd February 2009, 02:00 AM   #110
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My FAVORITE tweeter in the whole wide world is the B&C DE250!!!

Sorry, couldn't resist. I think the question is one of those "forest for the trees" problems. I have been an audiophile for over 30 years and personally heard almost all of the "highest of the high end" speakers. They all sounded pathetic once I heard a good compression driver in a proper waveguide. Even the tweeter in the latest darling Magico sounds lifeless and compressed by comparison.
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