Hello
I have the next three drivers , I would like to build a 3way standing speakers out of them in a 60L BR with separate enclosure for the mid driver .
The drivers
Woofer Monacor SPH-200KEP
http://www.monacor.de/typo3/index.php?id=75&L=1&act=&act_sub=&artid=2074&spr=EN&typ=u
For mid I want to use Gorlich driver I will attach the data of the speaker .Highlighted with pink .
For tweeter I use Scan Speak
http://www.tymphany.com/d2905_930000
I would like to make the crossing points at 700or800Hh and 3800Hz .
If you have software would you please help me so I can finish my speakers .
Thank you very much .
I would like to use 12db crossover .
I have some inductors 2.2mH if is possible I would like to use them .
I have the next three drivers , I would like to build a 3way standing speakers out of them in a 60L BR with separate enclosure for the mid driver .
The drivers
Woofer Monacor SPH-200KEP
http://www.monacor.de/typo3/index.php?id=75&L=1&act=&act_sub=&artid=2074&spr=EN&typ=u
For mid I want to use Gorlich driver I will attach the data of the speaker .Highlighted with pink .
For tweeter I use Scan Speak
http://www.tymphany.com/d2905_930000
I would like to make the crossing points at 700or800Hh and 3800Hz .
If you have software would you please help me so I can finish my speakers .
Thank you very much .
I would like to use 12db crossover .
I have some inductors 2.2mH if is possible I would like to use them .
Attachments
The most frequently asked question in DIY speakers
http://undefinition.googlepages.com/diy-mfaq
http://undefinition.googlepages.com/diy-mfaq
I sort of, more or less, kind of, disagree with Undefinition.
The FAQ he links to, which presumably are his own, say in response to every question - It will sound bad.
Q: If I use these three speakers, can I make a good speaker?
A: No, it will sound bad.
Q: How about if I do this instead?
A: It will still sound bad.
Q: How about this, that or the other thing?
A: Bad, bad, bad.
Not quite true, I don't think.
Will the speakers sound great, probably not. They certainly won't live up to their potential with a very generic off the shelf text book design. But they will still sound good, maybe even good for the money. But if you want that extra level of sound quality the speakers are capable of, then you have to apply the extra level of design engineering to get that from them.
For a beginner, well chosen speaker combined with a textbook crossover is a good place to start and will produce pleasing results. But again, not at maximum potential.
What you have can be improved with a few simple enhancements to the crossover; like Zobel Networks.
To move to the next level, you have to be able to test the speakers, which mean time, skill, and equipment. There are some low dollar options here. Many people get by just fine with a piece of logarithmic graph paper, a frequency sweep CD, and an SPL meter. This is cheap, but it is also a slow tedious method.
Most combine the whole process into their computers. Computers are perfectly capable of acting as a signal or sine wave generators, and at the same time, are capable of taking measurements. A quick and easy way to design and test speakers for anyone who already has a nice computer and a spare $500 to $600 laying around. Or perhaps, $1000 by the time you add some special audio test software.
Everybody has to start somewhere. We all have to build our first set of speakers, if for nothing else, than to teach us just how complex the process is. The first few designs are certain to come out OK, and you are likely to be reasonably satisfied with them. But, like it or not, good as they may be, more and better engineering could make them better.
First, choosing three speakers, assuming a 3-way, is difficult, very difficult. The first and foremost thing is you simply can't trust rated frequency response. You may look at catalogs and see this woofer goes from 30hz to 3,000hz, this midrange goes from 1,000hz to 4,000hz, and this tweeter goes from 2,000hz to 20,000hz. I'm set, I've got what I need.
First, few woofer are clean above 1,000hz. They may be usable if you know what you are doing, but they are rarely smooth above 1k.
Midranges work best if the low crossover is two octaves above the resonance of the midrange. That's a nice rule, but rarely practical, and rarely in sync with what you want to do. There are ways around it but, you need to know what you are doing. Plus, the high end rated response of the midrange may contain breakups or response irregularities that must either be avoided or compensated for.
Tweeters, seem simple enough, but they don't handle much power. The higher the crossover, the more power they will take. Also, they tend to be loud, so we have to lower the level of tweeter and possible the midrange, to match the woofer. These aspects aren't part of a text book crossover, you need to add them on. Some of them are prone to very uneven frequency response with lots of peaks and valleys, especially on the high end.
Now, since speakers are rarely flat, there are going to be peaks and valleys in the response. Again, a crossover issue. You can at narrow band attenuation to the crossover to pull narrow peaks down. Though, there isn't much you can do about valley beyond redesign the speaker or live with the valley.
Unless you can see a frequency response chart for each of the speakers, you can't know what they will and won't do. And manufacturer frequency response graphs are just representative, they tell you about the speaker in general, but they don't precisely document your specific speaker.
So, now our basic textbook crossover has grown considerably. We have the basic plus the Zobel network plus the attenuation plus any equalization.
And so far this hasn't even addressed the cabinets. The cabinet we want is seldom the cabinet that the speakers need. So, we compromise, but knowing how, when, and where to compromise is important.
I've rambled enough for now. But my central point is, that even primitive basic design textbook speaker can still sound good to a beginner. But with time and experience you will realize that they can sound better.
So, as Undefinition implies, speaker designed by a beginner are not going to sound optimally good. But then, do we really expect that from a beginner? Did your first system sound optimally good?
I guess rather than discourage, I want to encourage a beginner to try in a thoughtful and educated way. Each experience will produce acceptable result, and each experience will teach a beginner what it will take to move closer to optimal results.
It is not a destination; it is a journey.
Steve/bluewizard
The FAQ he links to, which presumably are his own, say in response to every question - It will sound bad.
Q: If I use these three speakers, can I make a good speaker?
A: No, it will sound bad.
Q: How about if I do this instead?
A: It will still sound bad.
Q: How about this, that or the other thing?
A: Bad, bad, bad.
Not quite true, I don't think.
Will the speakers sound great, probably not. They certainly won't live up to their potential with a very generic off the shelf text book design. But they will still sound good, maybe even good for the money. But if you want that extra level of sound quality the speakers are capable of, then you have to apply the extra level of design engineering to get that from them.
For a beginner, well chosen speaker combined with a textbook crossover is a good place to start and will produce pleasing results. But again, not at maximum potential.
What you have can be improved with a few simple enhancements to the crossover; like Zobel Networks.
To move to the next level, you have to be able to test the speakers, which mean time, skill, and equipment. There are some low dollar options here. Many people get by just fine with a piece of logarithmic graph paper, a frequency sweep CD, and an SPL meter. This is cheap, but it is also a slow tedious method.
Most combine the whole process into their computers. Computers are perfectly capable of acting as a signal or sine wave generators, and at the same time, are capable of taking measurements. A quick and easy way to design and test speakers for anyone who already has a nice computer and a spare $500 to $600 laying around. Or perhaps, $1000 by the time you add some special audio test software.
Everybody has to start somewhere. We all have to build our first set of speakers, if for nothing else, than to teach us just how complex the process is. The first few designs are certain to come out OK, and you are likely to be reasonably satisfied with them. But, like it or not, good as they may be, more and better engineering could make them better.
First, choosing three speakers, assuming a 3-way, is difficult, very difficult. The first and foremost thing is you simply can't trust rated frequency response. You may look at catalogs and see this woofer goes from 30hz to 3,000hz, this midrange goes from 1,000hz to 4,000hz, and this tweeter goes from 2,000hz to 20,000hz. I'm set, I've got what I need.
First, few woofer are clean above 1,000hz. They may be usable if you know what you are doing, but they are rarely smooth above 1k.
Midranges work best if the low crossover is two octaves above the resonance of the midrange. That's a nice rule, but rarely practical, and rarely in sync with what you want to do. There are ways around it but, you need to know what you are doing. Plus, the high end rated response of the midrange may contain breakups or response irregularities that must either be avoided or compensated for.
Tweeters, seem simple enough, but they don't handle much power. The higher the crossover, the more power they will take. Also, they tend to be loud, so we have to lower the level of tweeter and possible the midrange, to match the woofer. These aspects aren't part of a text book crossover, you need to add them on. Some of them are prone to very uneven frequency response with lots of peaks and valleys, especially on the high end.
Now, since speakers are rarely flat, there are going to be peaks and valleys in the response. Again, a crossover issue. You can at narrow band attenuation to the crossover to pull narrow peaks down. Though, there isn't much you can do about valley beyond redesign the speaker or live with the valley.
Unless you can see a frequency response chart for each of the speakers, you can't know what they will and won't do. And manufacturer frequency response graphs are just representative, they tell you about the speaker in general, but they don't precisely document your specific speaker.
So, now our basic textbook crossover has grown considerably. We have the basic plus the Zobel network plus the attenuation plus any equalization.
And so far this hasn't even addressed the cabinets. The cabinet we want is seldom the cabinet that the speakers need. So, we compromise, but knowing how, when, and where to compromise is important.
I've rambled enough for now. But my central point is, that even primitive basic design textbook speaker can still sound good to a beginner. But with time and experience you will realize that they can sound better.
So, as Undefinition implies, speaker designed by a beginner are not going to sound optimally good. But then, do we really expect that from a beginner? Did your first system sound optimally good?
I guess rather than discourage, I want to encourage a beginner to try in a thoughtful and educated way. Each experience will produce acceptable result, and each experience will teach a beginner what it will take to move closer to optimal results.
It is not a destination; it is a journey.
Steve/bluewizard
Hello
Firs I'm not totally beginner with speaker building !I have almost 20 years experience .
The truth is mostly with 2 way speakers but I do not afraid from the 3way system .
I have some speaker building books , with XO designs .But it would be more easier to use a software and calculate the parts for the XO .
I totally disagree I'm not capable to build better speaker than general commercial speaker , especially the cheap speakers .
Thanks for the help guys .
Greetings
Firs I'm not totally beginner with speaker building !I have almost 20 years experience .
The truth is mostly with 2 way speakers but I do not afraid from the 3way system .
I have some speaker building books , with XO designs .But it would be more easier to use a software and calculate the parts for the XO .
I totally disagree I'm not capable to build better speaker than general commercial speaker , especially the cheap speakers .
Thanks for the help guys .
Greetings
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you personally were not able to do this. In fact, I hoped I was encouraging you, and anyone else who reads this, to not let the Nay Sayers discourage you.
Are you looking to BUY software, or for a link to something on-line, or free software?
See if any of these links provide some help -
http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html
http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/XOver/Help.aspx
http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/APCXOver/
http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/FAQ/XOver/
http://sound.westhost.com/lr-passive.htm
http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=36
If you are looking to purchase software, I will leave that to others more experience than myself.
Steve/bluewizard
Are you looking to BUY software, or for a link to something on-line, or free software?
See if any of these links provide some help -
http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html
http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/XOver/Help.aspx
http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/APCXOver/
http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/FAQ/XOver/
http://sound.westhost.com/lr-passive.htm
http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=36
If you are looking to purchase software, I will leave that to others more experience than myself.
Steve/bluewizard
BlueWizard said:
Hi,
I'd say you are not following what he is saying .....
FWIW IMO given what your saying and he is saying,
he right and you are wrong. IMO what your saying
is misleading, he is erring towards being cautious.
/sreten.See links for "how to" 3 way design + free tools + info :
http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/FRDtools.html
http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/DesigningXO.htm
http://www.zaphaudio.com/
http://www.rjbaudio.com/projects.html
http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
http://htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/
http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/John1.html
http://www.musicanddesign.com/
Thank you guys
Hello
Thank you guys it is a big difference your posts and the first post .
Thank you very much for your help instead the encouragement .
Even if I would be a totally newbie , everybody started sometimes somewhere . No one was born like He knew everything about the speaker XO design .
Your words are kind an encourage , thank you very much .
I do not want to by a software for one XO but if I find any free software or any help that what I originally I wanted .
Million thanks one more times .
Your word are kind and helpful even I didn't check yet the links I wanted to thank you at first .
God bless you guys .
Greetings
Hello
Thank you guys it is a big difference your posts and the first post .
Thank you very much for your help instead the encouragement .
Even if I would be a totally newbie , everybody started sometimes somewhere . No one was born like He knew everything about the speaker XO design .
Your words are kind an encourage , thank you very much .
I do not want to by a software for one XO but if I find any free software or any help that what I originally I wanted .
Million thanks one more times .
Your word are kind and helpful even I didn't check yet the links I wanted to thank you at first .
God bless you guys .
Greetings
Hello
I wrote a mistake , I wanted to say the discouragement from Undefinition .
There are guys who think they knew everything the rest of the world are stupid .
Sorry about the harsh words but it does sound Undefinition post like that .
One more time thanks for you willingness and the time you took to try to help me .
What a big difference .
Greetings
I wrote a mistake , I wanted to say the discouragement from Undefinition .
There are guys who think they knew everything the rest of the world are stupid .
Sorry about the harsh words but it does sound Undefinition post like that .
One more time thanks for you willingness and the time you took to try to help me .
What a big difference .
Greetings
No surprise that Sreten and I disagree on this issue, and it is not the first time.
As to what Undefinition says, in the broader sense, for the most part, I agree ... in the broader sense. But there seems to be an underlying message of, don't even bother to try until you know as much as I do. Yet, how can a person possibly gain that knowledge unless they cut-and-try a few times?
Most here are dead set against off-the-shelf or textbook crossovers, and claim rightly that the crossover is one of the most difficult parts of speaker design. But not one of them has ever pointed me toward a resource that will teach me the intricacies of crossover design.
Every crossover design starts with a textbook crossover design, then is expanded and modified to achieve optimal results from the speakers you have. I doubt that any but the absolute most experienced and knowledgeable get the crossover right on the first try. Likely the basic crossover is designed, and then we enter a round of testing and tweaking until we are satisfied.
But testing is the key. If you can build but you can't test, then you have to settle for compromises; though usually acceptable compromises at the design and build level you are at.
So, for a beginner, or someone less than an expert, a speaker design is a project that can last for years. It is a never ending quest for more knowledge and the better sound quality it brings. To some extent, as long as you own them, you are looking for ways to improve and refine the sound, and in the process, you gain the experience and tools necessary to built truly good speakers.
You have to learn to walk before you can run. But the perceived attitude from some seems to be, if you can't run, don't even bother.
Now, don't get me wrong, you need a basic level of knowledge to even begin. You have to understand speakers, and how to read and evaluate the specs. You need the basics of cabinet design, a basic compliment of woodworking skills and tools, and a basic knowledge of crossover design. From there you can gain-by-doing, the knowledge to refine a design into something worthy of having.
I say, start at the beginning, because that is the path that will take you to where you ultimately need to be.
It's not a destination; it's a journey.
By the way, an excellent compliment of links was provided by Sreten.
Steve/bluewizard
As to what Undefinition says, in the broader sense, for the most part, I agree ... in the broader sense. But there seems to be an underlying message of, don't even bother to try until you know as much as I do. Yet, how can a person possibly gain that knowledge unless they cut-and-try a few times?
Most here are dead set against off-the-shelf or textbook crossovers, and claim rightly that the crossover is one of the most difficult parts of speaker design. But not one of them has ever pointed me toward a resource that will teach me the intricacies of crossover design.
Every crossover design starts with a textbook crossover design, then is expanded and modified to achieve optimal results from the speakers you have. I doubt that any but the absolute most experienced and knowledgeable get the crossover right on the first try. Likely the basic crossover is designed, and then we enter a round of testing and tweaking until we are satisfied.
But testing is the key. If you can build but you can't test, then you have to settle for compromises; though usually acceptable compromises at the design and build level you are at.
So, for a beginner, or someone less than an expert, a speaker design is a project that can last for years. It is a never ending quest for more knowledge and the better sound quality it brings. To some extent, as long as you own them, you are looking for ways to improve and refine the sound, and in the process, you gain the experience and tools necessary to built truly good speakers.
You have to learn to walk before you can run. But the perceived attitude from some seems to be, if you can't run, don't even bother.
Now, don't get me wrong, you need a basic level of knowledge to even begin. You have to understand speakers, and how to read and evaluate the specs. You need the basics of cabinet design, a basic compliment of woodworking skills and tools, and a basic knowledge of crossover design. From there you can gain-by-doing, the knowledge to refine a design into something worthy of having.
I say, start at the beginning, because that is the path that will take you to where you ultimately need to be.
It's not a destination; it's a journey.
By the way, an excellent compliment of links was provided by Sreten.
Steve/bluewizard
Well, the good man Sreten knows a hell lot about speaker design, and gives good solid advice, no doubt
no one can ever deny that or take it away from him, noone should
but Sreten, I do think it may be due time you tried to build one, no matter what the practical difficulties are, just to see if it really works like you expects, it may or may not, only way to find out is doing it...as it is with the rest of us
Fore the same reason I try to never be too categorical or persistent, because I know I could so easily be wrong
I am sure you remember Omni and his project, and we thought all was well the moment he learned to do simulation, but it was very early clear that many obvious things very not easy at all, and much too many difficult aspects of xo design had to be learned fast, but it only showed to be not so easy...I bet he is still fooling around with his speaker, like the rest of us do too
so yes I agree, we all have to start somewhere, and its surely not from the same spot fore all of us...we all have to strugle in different ways to find our place in life, as we with speakers will have very different means and goal, trying to reach audio nirvana
Some like it sour, some like it sweet, the truth is not allways the same fore everybody
Its not dissrespect Sreten, I do respect you fore your knowledge, and maybe as a person too, but that I cant know
I will probably regret saying this
no one can ever deny that or take it away from him, noone should
but Sreten, I do think it may be due time you tried to build one, no matter what the practical difficulties are, just to see if it really works like you expects, it may or may not, only way to find out is doing it...as it is with the rest of us
Fore the same reason I try to never be too categorical or persistent, because I know I could so easily be wrong
I am sure you remember Omni and his project, and we thought all was well the moment he learned to do simulation, but it was very early clear that many obvious things very not easy at all, and much too many difficult aspects of xo design had to be learned fast, but it only showed to be not so easy...I bet he is still fooling around with his speaker, like the rest of us do too
so yes I agree, we all have to start somewhere, and its surely not from the same spot fore all of us...we all have to strugle in different ways to find our place in life, as we with speakers will have very different means and goal, trying to reach audio nirvana
Some like it sour, some like it sweet, the truth is not allways the same fore everybody
Its not dissrespect Sreten, I do respect you fore your knowledge, and maybe as a person too, but that I cant know
I will probably regret saying this
Sreten always says what he thinks, and he is usually correct on technical matters.
Paul has a lot of experience and his advice is good, but only you can tell if the experiment is worthwhile or not.
If you are like myself; it is the experience and learning that make DIY worthwhile.
My feeling is that you should "Have a go" even if it will need to be smashed up and a second attempt made, and a third; then a fourth until one day it comes together.
Making mistakes is the only way to learn for some of us.
Paul/Undefinition is not telling you NOT to do it, he's just saying it won't work out perfectly.
Building speakers from a random selection of drivers is not the best plan, but it can be done, just harder than it need be.
Have a go.
But you did ASK and I personally would never build a 3-way with the woofer to mid cross-over point that high, i'd be dropping an octave and a half or even 2 octave and if the mid won't work there pick a different mid
Paul has a lot of experience and his advice is good, but only you can tell if the experiment is worthwhile or not.
If you are like myself; it is the experience and learning that make DIY worthwhile.
My feeling is that you should "Have a go" even if it will need to be smashed up and a second attempt made, and a third; then a fourth until one day it comes together.
Making mistakes is the only way to learn for some of us.
Paul/Undefinition is not telling you NOT to do it, he's just saying it won't work out perfectly.
Building speakers from a random selection of drivers is not the best plan, but it can be done, just harder than it need be.
Have a go.
But you did ASK and I personally would never build a 3-way with the woofer to mid cross-over point that high, i'd be dropping an octave and a half or even 2 octave and if the mid won't work there pick a different mid
I too want to make sure no one thinks I was disrespecting Sreten or Undefinition. First and foremost, they are right. And they have probably forgotten more than I will ever know.
And, that is probably the problem, Sreten and others have so much knowledge and experience, that they see every problem and pitfall in making a crossover. They see the immense complexity in the task.
But my point is, you have to give people an entry point into building speakers. You can't start as an expert, so you have to start as a NOT expert and work your way up.
The only logical place to start is with a textbook crossover. No, I don't think that is optimal, but it will still work. In the end, the builder will put electrical music into his speaker, and acoustical music will come out. And I think it will sound good, but the builder as much as he admires what he has accomplished, will note that something isn't quite right. Or, he will say, OK, I did a great job there, but I know I can do better.
And then the process of refining the design begins.
We all want to end up where Sreten is at, but the only way to get there, is to start where we are at and struggle to rise up.
So, again, to the subject in general, it doesn't solve the problem to tell someone that building a crossover is too complex. They don't need to know that it can't be done, they need to know that it can be done, and from that knowledge, have a starting point.
For some, the starting point is an off-the-shelf crossover. Which we can only hope will lead to a more precise textbook designed crossover. Which in turn will lead to a more refinements of the crossover, and more books, and more knowledge, and more experience, more equipment, and eventually to a very satisfying speaker system.
All I am saying is when someone comes in with a basic, how do I design a crossover question, we need to give them some place to start.
In all fairness, Sreten offered a long list of helpful links.
So, absolutely and positively, no disrespect toward Sreten or
Undefinition, I envy their skill and knowledge, but as something of a beginner, I need a place to start.
Steve/bluewizard
And, that is probably the problem, Sreten and others have so much knowledge and experience, that they see every problem and pitfall in making a crossover. They see the immense complexity in the task.
But my point is, you have to give people an entry point into building speakers. You can't start as an expert, so you have to start as a NOT expert and work your way up.
The only logical place to start is with a textbook crossover. No, I don't think that is optimal, but it will still work. In the end, the builder will put electrical music into his speaker, and acoustical music will come out. And I think it will sound good, but the builder as much as he admires what he has accomplished, will note that something isn't quite right. Or, he will say, OK, I did a great job there, but I know I can do better.
And then the process of refining the design begins.
We all want to end up where Sreten is at, but the only way to get there, is to start where we are at and struggle to rise up.
So, again, to the subject in general, it doesn't solve the problem to tell someone that building a crossover is too complex. They don't need to know that it can't be done, they need to know that it can be done, and from that knowledge, have a starting point.
For some, the starting point is an off-the-shelf crossover. Which we can only hope will lead to a more precise textbook designed crossover. Which in turn will lead to a more refinements of the crossover, and more books, and more knowledge, and more experience, more equipment, and eventually to a very satisfying speaker system.
All I am saying is when someone comes in with a basic, how do I design a crossover question, we need to give them some place to start.
In all fairness, Sreten offered a long list of helpful links.
So, absolutely and positively, no disrespect toward Sreten or
Undefinition, I envy their skill and knowledge, but as something of a beginner, I need a place to start.
Steve/bluewizard
Hello
Thanks guys for the encouragement , I have almost 20 years experience building amplifiers , speakers , home made cables etc .
Mostly how I already stated 2 way speakers but some 3 ways to .I sold several speakers .
Even some one sold his B&W speakers and bought mine because how it sounded .Of course the used B&W speaker even is used condition worth 3 time more com pair to the speaker I sold to him .
All I know the crossover not my easiest point , it takes days weeks even months if I build it for myself to get it right .
For ex. I built a small Visaton bookshelf speaker about 12L with 18db crossover .It took me a couple weeks until I get them right .
After I sow on Visaton home site Visaton has similar size speaker using the same midwoofer AL130 . I thought lets try to put together their crossover (design by engineers ).So I made the crossover exact after the Visaton design .At first I couldn't believe my ear it sounded terrible .So I did some adjustment on the XO , several times but still the bass was somehow week not clear all together no presence , mushy mids .
So after several hours I did put back the original XO what I design from a speakers building book .
What a difference . I marvel how Visaton can sell those speakers ??
The reason I asked for help not because I'm unable to do it because I thought I can avoid to work with it days or weeks , until I get it right . But from your writings which are very good and helpful I understood there is no such formula or there is no short cut or software to resolve these problem .To get the XO right at the first or the second time !
So I have to build the basic XO after test , and new test and more tests .
One of my friend told me ones if you use good drivers , the right size enclosure and good components for the XO , have some experience and ear you know what to do almost impossible to build bad sounding speakers ! He build speakers , and amps and turn tables for living . Of course you have to try again and again until you get it right .
So you guys say the same , not to give up , try and try until I 'd like it .
Thanks one more time for all of you .
I know I can do it !! I just wanted a short cut or thought may be there is an easier way to do these .
Sorry about my English is a ESL , far from perfect but hope you can understand .
Thanks one more time .
Greetings
Thanks guys for the encouragement , I have almost 20 years experience building amplifiers , speakers , home made cables etc .
Mostly how I already stated 2 way speakers but some 3 ways to .I sold several speakers .
Even some one sold his B&W speakers and bought mine because how it sounded .Of course the used B&W speaker even is used condition worth 3 time more com pair to the speaker I sold to him .
All I know the crossover not my easiest point , it takes days weeks even months if I build it for myself to get it right .
For ex. I built a small Visaton bookshelf speaker about 12L with 18db crossover .It took me a couple weeks until I get them right .
After I sow on Visaton home site Visaton has similar size speaker using the same midwoofer AL130 . I thought lets try to put together their crossover (design by engineers ).So I made the crossover exact after the Visaton design .At first I couldn't believe my ear it sounded terrible .So I did some adjustment on the XO , several times but still the bass was somehow week not clear all together no presence , mushy mids .
So after several hours I did put back the original XO what I design from a speakers building book .
What a difference . I marvel how Visaton can sell those speakers ??
The reason I asked for help not because I'm unable to do it because I thought I can avoid to work with it days or weeks , until I get it right . But from your writings which are very good and helpful I understood there is no such formula or there is no short cut or software to resolve these problem .To get the XO right at the first or the second time !
So I have to build the basic XO after test , and new test and more tests .
One of my friend told me ones if you use good drivers , the right size enclosure and good components for the XO , have some experience and ear you know what to do almost impossible to build bad sounding speakers ! He build speakers , and amps and turn tables for living . Of course you have to try again and again until you get it right .
So you guys say the same , not to give up , try and try until I 'd like it .
Thanks one more time for all of you .
I know I can do it !! I just wanted a short cut or thought may be there is an easier way to do these .
Sorry about my English is a ESL , far from perfect but hope you can understand .
Thanks one more time .
Greetings
Hi,
People see things in different ways and understand things differently.
This a forum which is about debate, opinions do not imply disrespect.
A texbook crossover is the only logical point to start for learning,
not building, and basically you do not learn a lot about theory
by building things, and many speakers not built optimally (for
the approach taken) are in reality never corrected.
The "only way to get there is to struggle and work your way up" ?
Nonsense IMO and an assumption as to what getting there is.
Assuming textbook / off the shelf crossovers are completely
wrong and will not work well (which they do not, see :
http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Sc51
for an example of the near clueless who left to his own devices
would have got it completely wrong, and possibly left it that
that way ?, what could be wrong with it ?, and the final result
is still a botched job .....) is an entirely logical point to start.
IMO there is nothing wrong with Pauls FAQ, it contains a lot of sense.
His site is also a good read - and outlines his design philosophy.
The links I gave outline a methodology for designing crossovers.
Understanding the theory helps but as long as you follow the
methodology you will not go too far wrong with the simulation.
If Gaborbela follows this and asks questions here regarding the
right XO points and slopes etc he will save himself untold grief.
(Though he will have to make his own mind up regarding conflicting
advice given - i.e. work his way towards his own design philosophy).
Measuring is even better.
Though currently the main thing missing is the frequency response
and impedance curve of the midrange unit, with these a reasonable
attempt could be made without measurements.
This is assuming of course he wants to do it right, not wrong.
Doing it right is also debatable and boils down to design philosophy.
Doing something you know will be wrong does not make sense to me.
Part of my design philosophy, YMMV as to what constitutes "wrong".
/sreten.
People see things in different ways and understand things differently.
This a forum which is about debate, opinions do not imply disrespect.
A texbook crossover is the only logical point to start for learning,
not building, and basically you do not learn a lot about theory
by building things, and many speakers not built optimally (for
the approach taken) are in reality never corrected.
The "only way to get there is to struggle and work your way up" ?
Nonsense IMO and an assumption as to what getting there is.
Assuming textbook / off the shelf crossovers are completely
wrong and will not work well (which they do not, see :
http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Sc51
for an example of the near clueless who left to his own devices
would have got it completely wrong, and possibly left it that
that way ?, what could be wrong with it ?, and the final result
is still a botched job .....) is an entirely logical point to start.
IMO there is nothing wrong with Pauls FAQ, it contains a lot of sense.
His site is also a good read - and outlines his design philosophy.
The links I gave outline a methodology for designing crossovers.
Understanding the theory helps but as long as you follow the
methodology you will not go too far wrong with the simulation.
If Gaborbela follows this and asks questions here regarding the
right XO points and slopes etc he will save himself untold grief.
(Though he will have to make his own mind up regarding conflicting
advice given - i.e. work his way towards his own design philosophy).
Measuring is even better.
Though currently the main thing missing is the frequency response
and impedance curve of the midrange unit, with these a reasonable
attempt could be made without measurements.
This is assuming of course he wants to do it right, not wrong.
Doing it right is also debatable and boils down to design philosophy.
Doing something you know will be wrong does not make sense to me.
Part of my design philosophy, YMMV as to what constitutes "wrong".
/sreten.- Status
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