Please help with the 3 way XO design - diyAudio
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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 19th January 2009, 08:56 AM   #1
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Default Please help with the 3 way XO design

Hello
I have the next three drivers , I would like to build a 3way standing speakers out of them in a 60L BR with separate enclosure for the mid driver .
The drivers
Woofer Monacor SPH-200KEP
http://www.monacor.de/typo3/index.ph...4&spr=EN&typ=u
For mid I want to use Gorlich driver I will attach the data of the speaker .Highlighted with pink .
For tweeter I use Scan Speak
http://www.tymphany.com/d2905_930000
I would like to make the crossing points at 700or800Hh and 3800Hz .
If you have software would you please help me so I can finish my speakers .
Thank you very much .
I would like to use 12db crossover .
I have some inductors 2.2mH if is possible I would like to use them .
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Old 19th January 2009, 09:02 AM   #2
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Hello
I attach the data of the Gorlich one more time may be possible to read better.
Greetings
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Old 19th January 2009, 03:50 PM   #3
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Location: Chicagoland
The most frequently asked question in DIY speakers
http://undefinition.googlepages.com/diy-mfaq
__________________
-Paul Carmody
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy
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Old 19th January 2009, 09:54 PM   #4
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I sort of, more or less, kind of, disagree with Undefinition.

The FAQ he links to, which presumably are his own, say in response to every question - It will sound bad.

Q: If I use these three speakers, can I make a good speaker?
A: No, it will sound bad.

Q: How about if I do this instead?
A: It will still sound bad.

Q: How about this, that or the other thing?
A: Bad, bad, bad.

Not quite true, I don't think.

Will the speakers sound great, probably not. They certainly won't live up to their potential with a very generic off the shelf text book design. But they will still sound good, maybe even good for the money. But if you want that extra level of sound quality the speakers are capable of, then you have to apply the extra level of design engineering to get that from them.

For a beginner, well chosen speaker combined with a textbook crossover is a good place to start and will produce pleasing results. But again, not at maximum potential.

What you have can be improved with a few simple enhancements to the crossover; like Zobel Networks.

To move to the next level, you have to be able to test the speakers, which mean time, skill, and equipment. There are some low dollar options here. Many people get by just fine with a piece of logarithmic graph paper, a frequency sweep CD, and an SPL meter. This is cheap, but it is also a slow tedious method.

Most combine the whole process into their computers. Computers are perfectly capable of acting as a signal or sine wave generators, and at the same time, are capable of taking measurements. A quick and easy way to design and test speakers for anyone who already has a nice computer and a spare $500 to $600 laying around. Or perhaps, $1000 by the time you add some special audio test software.

Everybody has to start somewhere. We all have to build our first set of speakers, if for nothing else, than to teach us just how complex the process is. The first few designs are certain to come out OK, and you are likely to be reasonably satisfied with them. But, like it or not, good as they may be, more and better engineering could make them better.

First, choosing three speakers, assuming a 3-way, is difficult, very difficult. The first and foremost thing is you simply can't trust rated frequency response. You may look at catalogs and see this woofer goes from 30hz to 3,000hz, this midrange goes from 1,000hz to 4,000hz, and this tweeter goes from 2,000hz to 20,000hz. I'm set, I've got what I need.

First, few woofer are clean above 1,000hz. They may be usable if you know what you are doing, but they are rarely smooth above 1k.

Midranges work best if the low crossover is two octaves above the resonance of the midrange. That's a nice rule, but rarely practical, and rarely in sync with what you want to do. There are ways around it but, you need to know what you are doing. Plus, the high end rated response of the midrange may contain breakups or response irregularities that must either be avoided or compensated for.

Tweeters, seem simple enough, but they don't handle much power. The higher the crossover, the more power they will take. Also, they tend to be loud, so we have to lower the level of tweeter and possible the midrange, to match the woofer. These aspects aren't part of a text book crossover, you need to add them on. Some of them are prone to very uneven frequency response with lots of peaks and valleys, especially on the high end.

Now, since speakers are rarely flat, there are going to be peaks and valleys in the response. Again, a crossover issue. You can at narrow band attenuation to the crossover to pull narrow peaks down. Though, there isn't much you can do about valley beyond redesign the speaker or live with the valley.

Unless you can see a frequency response chart for each of the speakers, you can't know what they will and won't do. And manufacturer frequency response graphs are just representative, they tell you about the speaker in general, but they don't precisely document your specific speaker.

So, now our basic textbook crossover has grown considerably. We have the basic plus the Zobel network plus the attenuation plus any equalization.

And so far this hasn't even addressed the cabinets. The cabinet we want is seldom the cabinet that the speakers need. So, we compromise, but knowing how, when, and where to compromise is important.

I've rambled enough for now. But my central point is, that even primitive basic design textbook speaker can still sound good to a beginner. But with time and experience you will realize that they can sound better.

So, as Undefinition implies, speaker designed by a beginner are not going to sound optimally good. But then, do we really expect that from a beginner? Did your first system sound optimally good?

I guess rather than discourage, I want to encourage a beginner to try in a thoughtful and educated way. Each experience will produce acceptable result, and each experience will teach a beginner what it will take to move closer to optimal results.

It is not a destination; it is a journey.

Steve/bluewizard
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Old 19th January 2009, 10:08 PM   #5
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Hello
Firs I'm not totally beginner with speaker building !I have almost 20 years experience .
The truth is mostly with 2 way speakers but I do not afraid from the 3way system .
I have some speaker building books , with XO designs .But it would be more easier to use a software and calculate the parts for the XO .
I totally disagree I'm not capable to build better speaker than general commercial speaker , especially the cheap speakers .
Thanks for the help guys .

Greetings
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Old 20th January 2009, 09:16 AM   #6
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you personally were not able to do this. In fact, I hoped I was encouraging you, and anyone else who reads this, to not let the Nay Sayers discourage you.

Are you looking to BUY software, or for a link to something on-line, or free software?

See if any of these links provide some help -

http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html

http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calc...Over/Help.aspx

http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/APCXOver/

http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/FAQ/XOver/

http://sound.westhost.com/lr-passive.htm

http://www.carstereo.com/help/Articles.cfm?id=36

If you are looking to purchase software, I will leave that to others more experience than myself.

Steve/bluewizard
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Old 20th January 2009, 11:34 AM   #7
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brighton UK
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueWizard

I sort of, more or less, kind of, disagree with Undefinition.

Steve/bluewizard
Hi,

I'd say you are not following what he is saying .....

FWIW IMO given what your saying and he is saying,
he right and you are wrong. IMO what your saying
is misleading, he is erring towards being cautious.

/sreten.

See links for "how to" 3 way design + free tools + info :

http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/FRDtools.html
http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spk...esigningXO.htm

http://www.zaphaudio.com/
http://www.rjbaudio.com/projects.html
http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Lou...r_Projects.htm
http://htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/
http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/John1.html
http://www.musicanddesign.com/
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Old 20th January 2009, 12:33 PM   #8
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Default Thank you guys

Hello
Thank you guys it is a big difference your posts and the first post .
Thank you very much for your help instead the encouragement .
Even if I would be a totally newbie , everybody started sometimes somewhere . No one was born like He knew everything about the speaker XO design .
Your words are kind an encourage , thank you very much .
I do not want to by a software for one XO but if I find any free software or any help that what I originally I wanted .
Million thanks one more times .
Your word are kind and helpful even I didn't check yet the links I wanted to thank you at first .
God bless you guys .
Greetings
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Old 20th January 2009, 12:39 PM   #9
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Hello
I wrote a mistake , I wanted to say the discouragement from Undefinition .
There are guys who think they knew everything the rest of the world are stupid .
Sorry about the harsh words but it does sound Undefinition post like that .
One more time thanks for you willingness and the time you took to try to help me .
What a big difference .
Greetings
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Old 20th January 2009, 06:41 PM   #10
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Join Date: Jun 2007
No surprise that Sreten and I disagree on this issue, and it is not the first time.

As to what Undefinition says, in the broader sense, for the most part, I agree ... in the broader sense. But there seems to be an underlying message of, don't even bother to try until you know as much as I do. Yet, how can a person possibly gain that knowledge unless they cut-and-try a few times?

Most here are dead set against off-the-shelf or textbook crossovers, and claim rightly that the crossover is one of the most difficult parts of speaker design. But not one of them has ever pointed me toward a resource that will teach me the intricacies of crossover design.

Every crossover design starts with a textbook crossover design, then is expanded and modified to achieve optimal results from the speakers you have. I doubt that any but the absolute most experienced and knowledgeable get the crossover right on the first try. Likely the basic crossover is designed, and then we enter a round of testing and tweaking until we are satisfied.

But testing is the key. If you can build but you can't test, then you have to settle for compromises; though usually acceptable compromises at the design and build level you are at.

So, for a beginner, or someone less than an expert, a speaker design is a project that can last for years. It is a never ending quest for more knowledge and the better sound quality it brings. To some extent, as long as you own them, you are looking for ways to improve and refine the sound, and in the process, you gain the experience and tools necessary to built truly good speakers.

You have to learn to walk before you can run. But the perceived attitude from some seems to be, if you can't run, don't even bother.

Now, don't get me wrong, you need a basic level of knowledge to even begin. You have to understand speakers, and how to read and evaluate the specs. You need the basics of cabinet design, a basic compliment of woodworking skills and tools, and a basic knowledge of crossover design. From there you can gain-by-doing, the knowledge to refine a design into something worthy of having.

I say, start at the beginning, because that is the path that will take you to where you ultimately need to be.

It's not a destination; it's a journey.

By the way, an excellent compliment of links was provided by Sreten.

Steve/bluewizard
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