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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

A couple of questions re: bi/tri amping, electronic crossovers
A couple of questions re: bi/tri amping, electronic crossovers
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Old 21st December 2008, 04:51 PM   #11
Sheldon is offline Sheldon  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by EmergencyDpt
Dave, how would you modify this unit or is there something else that you have listened to? These units are selling for $269 on fleabay.
Crossover design is one of the most complex, yet most important elements of speaker design. Don't expect to master it in one go, but don't be intimidated by it either. I think that one of the inexpensive behringer units is a very good idea. It will allow you to quickly try different crossovers, including delay and level setting. Only through some trial and error and experience through your own ears will you get a grasp of how different elements affect the sound.

I think that the sound qualities that Dave perceives as being deficient with the unit will not prevent you from hearing the differences in different crossover designs. Once you have narrowed in on basic parameters, you can either build analog versions with high quality op-amps or discreet components, or a combination of the two. In the meantime you can look into improving the behringer unit. But if you like the convenience of a digital device, rather than modding that unit, you might consider using a PC with a good sound card and as your source. Some very powerful crossover and EQ design programs are now readily available. But they have a learning curve if you are not a PC jock.

Sheldon
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Old 21st December 2008, 05:07 PM   #12
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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A couple of questions re: bi/tri amping, electronic crossovers
Quote:
Originally posted by Sheldon
I think that the sound qualities that Dave perceives as being deficient with the unit will not prevent you from hearing the differences in different crossover designs.
It did me, the only "one" who could appreciate what it did was the measuring mic. It was very bad sonically.

It does allow one to quickly dial stuff in, and i was able to get a 25-20k +/- 2 dB baseline. The $10 in parts PLLXO totally wupped it sonically (not hard)

dave
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Old 21st December 2008, 05:43 PM   #13
WithTarragon is offline WithTarragon  United States
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Default Mods for DCX

Regarding mods for the DCX 2496.
There are many threads on this topic in this forum and some very good advice in a Yahoo forum. Search the threads.

My quick suggestions.
1. Do NOT buy a used unit. Get one new from a vendor who has a good return policy (Same Day Music or Musician's Friend etc). The quality control is not great, so you may need to exchange the unit, hence my advice above.

2. Keep you expectations reasonable. These are inexpensive units (less than $300), so the idea of spending a thousand to perform upgrade modifications is very questionable. This is especially true since the reliability may not be the best to begin with.

3. Do not use the the ADC on the unit. Use the digital output from your source (I assume you are using a CD player). Avoid this extra conversion, since there are many ways to do this incorrectly (i.e., maximizing the bits to the voltage range).

4. A good mod is replace the analog output section with transformers (many threads on this topic). In order of cost (descending): Jensen, Cinemag, and Edcor would be good candidates. Yes, you can always spend more but those other alternatives can be quite expensive. They probably sound better, but again this is a $300 unit. You will also need a simple RC filter to help with anti-aliasing - not a big deal.

The output section is the weak link on this unit. Others will do mods on the clock & power supply. But those should come second in my opinion. Try the transformer trick first. The Edcor transformers will only cost about $8-15 per channel and it is not very difficult for a DIYer. This will make an audible improvement. Again you can always spend more... but I will not enter into that debate.

To get an electronic crossover from another manufacturer that has the same functions and that is also of better build quality and reliability will be substantially more expensive. However, in terms of value per dollar, the Behringer is pretty good, especially with some minor mods.

Good Luck.
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Old 21st December 2008, 05:43 PM   #14
BlueWizard is offline BlueWizard  United States
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Making an active crossover or filter is not that complex; an op amp, a few capacitors, a few resistors...done.

The problem is making a variable adjustable crossover. If you are going to use this to test some unknown speakers (unknown parameters) then you need a range of selection of crossover frequencies, slopes, levels, as well as, possibly, 'Q'. It is these features that raise the cost of a variable multi-channel active crossover.

Now, if you know precisely what you want, then you can pre-determine the frequency and slope of the crossover. But other factors come into play as well. What if one of your speakers has a slight peak in the frequency response, then you have to add a circuit to tune down that peak.

Also, baffle step correction comes into play, rarely is baffle step at the same location as the low crossover frequency, so you either need to attenuate the upper aspects of the circuit to balance the sound or you have to boost the bass below the baffle step.

Whether buying or building, crossovers are not easy. Though, if you have the skill at electronics, active crossovers, in one sense, are easier and more flexible since the components are cheap and easy to change, and the circuit is relatively easy to add to.

Even the easiest path is still not that easy.

Of course, that is just one man's opinion.

Steve/bluewizard
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Old 21st December 2008, 05:52 PM   #15
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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A couple of questions re: bi/tri amping, electronic crossovers
Quote:
PLLXO
http://t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html

Note: if your HF amp has input impedance <50K you may well need to buffer that section.

dave
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Old 21st December 2008, 07:30 PM   #16
EmergencyDpt is offline EmergencyDpt  United States
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Thanks very much for all your input. I have been learning a great deal, something I always enjoy doing.

Is there a difference between an active crossover and an electronic crossover?
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Old 21st December 2008, 09:10 PM   #17
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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A couple of questions re: bi/tri amping, electronic crossovers
Quote:
Originally posted by EmergencyDpt
Is there a difference between an active crossover and an electronic crossover?
No.

dave
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Old 21st December 2008, 09:18 PM   #18
Kramerguy is offline Kramerguy  United States
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Here is a preamp schematic for my amplifier. It has a adjustment pot for cross over frequency attenuation but the idea behind it should be transferabe to almost anything.

I find BiAmping to be a very versitale feautre on my Bass Guitar rig as long as drive and cab selection is setup around the same concept. I get much more solid lows with far great power handling and the same is siad for the highs. It all seems to work better when the speaker are kept closer to their natural voicing.

Alot of the newer full range cabinets just sound mudy and confused to me. Maybe some guys like that??
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File Type: pdf rb1000,rb2000-preamp-schematic.pdf (66.6 KB, 23 views)
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