Hi
I have a large open “family” space I listen to a lot of music in, which is too live: slate walls, a fair amount of glass. I know the best solution is thick curtains, wall hangings and rugs, but I’ve broached this a number of times - my other half will not agree . .
I’m looking at two alternatives for speakers for this space (both with active subs). One with 10 inch midbass (PHLs) to run 100 – about 1500 Hz, crossing to eg a Seas H1212 or Peerless 810921; the other the about to released Lambda 6.5 inch 6.5TDM (very smooth on axis up higher), crossing about an octave higher, say at 3 – 3.5 kHz.
With an XO –speaker combination that has more concentrated response over the range 1.5 – 3.5 kHz, (other things being equal) will that lessen the over liveliness – "echoey" quality at all?
Thanks
I have a large open “family” space I listen to a lot of music in, which is too live: slate walls, a fair amount of glass. I know the best solution is thick curtains, wall hangings and rugs, but I’ve broached this a number of times - my other half will not agree . .
I’m looking at two alternatives for speakers for this space (both with active subs). One with 10 inch midbass (PHLs) to run 100 – about 1500 Hz, crossing to eg a Seas H1212 or Peerless 810921; the other the about to released Lambda 6.5 inch 6.5TDM (very smooth on axis up higher), crossing about an octave higher, say at 3 – 3.5 kHz.
With an XO –speaker combination that has more concentrated response over the range 1.5 – 3.5 kHz, (other things being equal) will that lessen the over liveliness – "echoey" quality at all?
Thanks
I think it's unlikely that different XO configurations will help you.
It's possible that an open baffle (OB) or omni-directional speaker design will be better (take a look at http://www.linkwitzlab.com/).
If you can position speakers so they're a good distance from the side walls, that will help, but I suspect a thick rug would also make a large difference. If you want to try to convince "the boss" then lay a duvet on the floor at what would be the reflection points and give it a listen - the difference may be sufficient to be persuasive.
It's possible that an open baffle (OB) or omni-directional speaker design will be better (take a look at http://www.linkwitzlab.com/).
If you can position speakers so they're a good distance from the side walls, that will help, but I suspect a thick rug would also make a large difference. If you want to try to convince "the boss" then lay a duvet on the floor at what would be the reflection points and give it a listen - the difference may be sufficient to be persuasive.
Sploo said exactly what I was thinking. An Omni would present a lot less reflective "noise" in the room and sound a lot more relaxed.
You could also look at "in-wall" sound treatments and ceiling treatments that aren't as intrusive. A good rug, a book case, and maybe corner traps. There are lots of ways to treat a room, but many aren't good for WAF.
XO points and directional speakers aren't likely to offer much in the way of help. You could use a high-end IQ to attenuate the worst of the problems, but I doubt it will help much with the "echoey" effect.
Good luck.
Robert
You could also look at "in-wall" sound treatments and ceiling treatments that aren't as intrusive. A good rug, a book case, and maybe corner traps. There are lots of ways to treat a room, but many aren't good for WAF.
XO points and directional speakers aren't likely to offer much in the way of help. You could use a high-end IQ to attenuate the worst of the problems, but I doubt it will help much with the "echoey" effect.
Good luck.
Robert
Take a picture or make a drawing and post it, or you are just wasting your time reading people's guesses. If it echoes, you need more absorption or diffusion, so either fill the room with furniture and knicknacks or put up some absorbing panels (ceiling?). EQ will not make this go away, and omni speakers will just bounce more sound off of the reflective walls.
Hi,
Try reading Geddes thoughts on domestic room acoustics, it may
make you feel better if nothing else, I do tend to agree with him.
See http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/Chapter 4.pdf
/sreten.
Try reading Geddes thoughts on domestic room acoustics, it may
make you feel better if nothing else, I do tend to agree with him.
See http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/Chapter 4.pdf
/sreten.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
Yes, open baffle would help - but WAF wont allow any space from the rear wall; I agree with Ron re diffuse sound from omni-directional speakers . .
I’ve read some on acoustics, and I’ll have a good read through Geddes article tonight, thanks.
I’ve done a floor plan to scale in Excel, attached.
It’s a casual living & listening area, but I do listen there a *lot. There’s no scope to put a book case or corner traps in, as the floor plan should make clear (it was fully furnished years ago). The walls above the cupboards have posters on them, but . .
I may be able to do some discretely covered ceiling absorbing panels, thanks I hadn’t thought of that. Also a friend has a spare sophisticated Rane XO with a ridiculous number of EQ options, that could be the final step.
My thinking re driver sizes is
- the frequency range that most of the problem occur in is likely 1500 – 3500 Hz (the clattery sort of sound). I should verify this with some sort of measurements . .
- over that range, a 6.5 inch would give a much more concentrated response than any tweeter, a similar benefit, though on a reduced scale, to the controlled directivity of open baffles, reducing room interaction.
Actually if I crossed at c 3500 Hz to a horn loaded tweeter (like a apir of the Eminence ~ I think its APT-80 ~ that I picked up at one point), that will give a more concentrated response right through the treble range as well . .
Any merit in that?
Cheers
Yes, open baffle would help - but WAF wont allow any space from the rear wall; I agree with Ron re diffuse sound from omni-directional speakers . .
I’ve read some on acoustics, and I’ll have a good read through Geddes article tonight, thanks.
I’ve done a floor plan to scale in Excel, attached.
It’s a casual living & listening area, but I do listen there a *lot. There’s no scope to put a book case or corner traps in, as the floor plan should make clear (it was fully furnished years ago). The walls above the cupboards have posters on them, but . .
I may be able to do some discretely covered ceiling absorbing panels, thanks I hadn’t thought of that. Also a friend has a spare sophisticated Rane XO with a ridiculous number of EQ options, that could be the final step.
My thinking re driver sizes is
- the frequency range that most of the problem occur in is likely 1500 – 3500 Hz (the clattery sort of sound). I should verify this with some sort of measurements . .
- over that range, a 6.5 inch would give a much more concentrated response than any tweeter, a similar benefit, though on a reduced scale, to the controlled directivity of open baffles, reducing room interaction.
Actually if I crossed at c 3500 Hz to a horn loaded tweeter (like a apir of the Eminence ~ I think its APT-80 ~ that I picked up at one point), that will give a more concentrated response right through the treble range as well . .
Any merit in that?
Cheers
> Where do you sit for listening?
A very good question, which I probably should have elaborated on earlier.
I don’t sit – I walk around. It’s a “casual” listening area, in that I do normal “non-fixed activities” while listening.
While my activities aren’t fixed, I’m still a frequent and very “critical” listener, diying to optimise for this situation . . which probably a few others have . .
I want to design & build speakers which are optimised for around my *standing ear height (c 170 cm = 5’ 7”), with the *minimum of room interaction, with a wide sweet range, rather than a single sweet “spot”.
The difference in height from normal seated positions could be accommodated with a simple upwards tilt of the mid-tweeter enclosure, but that wouldn’t deal with the aim of minimising room interaction.
The horn loading of the Eminence drivers is over c 90 degrees, ie lower than usual, equal in all directions. As I write, I gain more insight . .
To have minimal room interaction, but with a wide sweet range, ribbons maybe a good option. They would minimize ceiling & floor interactions (or in the situation shown in the attached Excel, ceiling and *table interactions) but probably increase side wall interactions . .
though side wall interactions, might relatively easily be reduced by more selective (given the high directivity of ribbons) absorbing panels . .
(I started the thread seeking ideas on the speakers. But other ideas are welcome too).
Cheers
A very good question, which I probably should have elaborated on earlier.
I don’t sit – I walk around. It’s a “casual” listening area, in that I do normal “non-fixed activities” while listening.
While my activities aren’t fixed, I’m still a frequent and very “critical” listener, diying to optimise for this situation . . which probably a few others have . .
I want to design & build speakers which are optimised for around my *standing ear height (c 170 cm = 5’ 7”), with the *minimum of room interaction, with a wide sweet range, rather than a single sweet “spot”.
The difference in height from normal seated positions could be accommodated with a simple upwards tilt of the mid-tweeter enclosure, but that wouldn’t deal with the aim of minimising room interaction.
The horn loading of the Eminence drivers is over c 90 degrees, ie lower than usual, equal in all directions. As I write, I gain more insight . .
To have minimal room interaction, but with a wide sweet range, ribbons maybe a good option. They would minimize ceiling & floor interactions (or in the situation shown in the attached Excel, ceiling and *table interactions) but probably increase side wall interactions . .
though side wall interactions, might relatively easily be reduced by more selective (given the high directivity of ribbons) absorbing panels . .
(I started the thread seeking ideas on the speakers. But other ideas are welcome too).
Cheers
Well, I would definitely still be leaning in the direction of Omnis, but the issue might be the speakers needing to be away from any close walls. Omnis, Ribbons, E-Stats, and others will need to be a little ways off the wall if possible.
Getting rid of the clattery sound might be difficult without some absorption in the room even then, but the less directional speakers will definitely eliminate the "head in a vice" problem.
If you have access to the Rane EQ, it would be a great way to test the frequency ideas. Even I will tell you that it won't stop the problem, but after years of working in cars where glass is something you cannot get away from, I am not inclined to dismiss any ideas. We would position tweeters in such a way that the reflections were time aligned to the listening position if we could. The issue there is the "sweet spot" being the only listenable position. Waveguides usually create the same issue. With a high band eq like the Rane, we could attenuate some of the excess noise, but I would think that is typically an electrical way to fix a defficiency in the near field rather than any real correction of the problem.
Let us know what you try. It sounds like a fun project so long as you don't mind experimenting with it.
Getting rid of the clattery sound might be difficult without some absorption in the room even then, but the less directional speakers will definitely eliminate the "head in a vice" problem.
If you have access to the Rane EQ, it would be a great way to test the frequency ideas. Even I will tell you that it won't stop the problem, but after years of working in cars where glass is something you cannot get away from, I am not inclined to dismiss any ideas. We would position tweeters in such a way that the reflections were time aligned to the listening position if we could. The issue there is the "sweet spot" being the only listenable position. Waveguides usually create the same issue. With a high band eq like the Rane, we could attenuate some of the excess noise, but I would think that is typically an electrical way to fix a defficiency in the near field rather than any real correction of the problem.
Let us know what you try. It sounds like a fun project so long as you don't mind experimenting with it.
I mix live sound for my church which meets in a school hall.
Brick walls, wooden floor AND for various reasons, we set up the stage right in one of the corners - so I have some experience with impossibly live situations.
Try repositioning your speakers as shown and toe them in so that each one points to the centre of the sofa.
This mostly removes the hard boundaries on either side of the speakers.
The table & chairs wil act as a diffuser of sorts and the sofa will act more effectively as an absorber.
You can also open up the doors down near where the sofa is to let some of the unwanted sound escape the room altogether.
Cheers,
Alex
Brick walls, wooden floor AND for various reasons, we set up the stage right in one of the corners - so I have some experience with impossibly live situations.
Try repositioning your speakers as shown and toe them in so that each one points to the centre of the sofa.
This mostly removes the hard boundaries on either side of the speakers.
The table & chairs wil act as a diffuser of sorts and the sofa will act more effectively as an absorber.
You can also open up the doors down near where the sofa is to let some of the unwanted sound escape the room altogether.
Cheers,
Alex
Attachments
To clarify: the problem isn’t a "head in a vice" position to get a good image, its too many reflections, I think mostly mid highs, muddying the sound.
I hadn’t thought of the Rane EQ (the RPM26z http://www.rane.com/rpm26z.html ) to *test the frequency responses, only as a part fix “at the end”.
To test the frequency problems, I thought of either ARTA or Room EQ Wizard http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/ - but I don’t know which would be better . . any recommendations?
As the floor is a tiled concrete slab, with doors or room openings on all walls, I run all speaker cables up the wall, through the roof space, and down the other side. Somehow 10+ years in the room, alternative speaker placements had fallen off the agenda.
I’m unable to edit the floor plan, which I created on another PC, but there’s just enough room to also try the speakers on the right hand wall. I’ll try a few locations over a weekend with the cables running over the floor.
Given how often I listen here, I should build a prototype with separate mid tweeter boxes, big enough to accommodate each of a “semi-horn” Eminence, a ribbon and a normal tweeter, then test with 2-3 positions, and some absorptive material at the 1st reflection points for each. When absorptive material positions are fixed, possibly with "art" covers.
Much more than I’d envisaged . .
Maybe I should also put a nice thick rug in my wife’s Xmas
stocking
Alex,
you re-opened my semi-shut-down mind to playing with speaker placements, thank you! (and yes ~ toe in)
Brick walls would be highly reflective, but wouldn’t wooden floors (the school hall) act as a good lower Hz absorber? The best bass I’ve heard was in a room with a wooden floor, and a friend has had the same experience . .
Cheers
I hadn’t thought of the Rane EQ (the RPM26z http://www.rane.com/rpm26z.html ) to *test the frequency responses, only as a part fix “at the end”.
To test the frequency problems, I thought of either ARTA or Room EQ Wizard http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/ - but I don’t know which would be better . . any recommendations?
As the floor is a tiled concrete slab, with doors or room openings on all walls, I run all speaker cables up the wall, through the roof space, and down the other side. Somehow 10+ years in the room, alternative speaker placements had fallen off the agenda.
I’m unable to edit the floor plan, which I created on another PC, but there’s just enough room to also try the speakers on the right hand wall. I’ll try a few locations over a weekend with the cables running over the floor.
Given how often I listen here, I should build a prototype with separate mid tweeter boxes, big enough to accommodate each of a “semi-horn” Eminence, a ribbon and a normal tweeter, then test with 2-3 positions, and some absorptive material at the 1st reflection points for each. When absorptive material positions are fixed, possibly with "art" covers.
Much more than I’d envisaged . .
Maybe I should also put a nice thick rug in my wife’s Xmas
stocking Alex,
you re-opened my semi-shut-down mind to playing with speaker placements, thank you! (and yes ~ toe in)
Brick walls would be highly reflective, but wouldn’t wooden floors (the school hall) act as a good lower Hz absorber? The best bass I’ve heard was in a room with a wooden floor, and a friend has had the same experience . .
Cheers
The more reverberant the room the more directional the speakers need to be to avoid the early reflections and "acoustic noise". Omnis are the worst case in this scenario. If you had some very directional speakers then you would be happier, but very very reverberant rooms like you describe will always be a problem. Some absorption is necessary, particularly at LFs, and with no LF absorption you would need a lot of subs. The problem that you describe is going to be the most difficult one to solve that there is - because it sounds like you can't really do anything.
otto88 said:
4000 Hz is pretty high for directivity to do much good. Your auditory accuity is greatest from about 1000 - 3000 Hz and fairly important from about 500 Hz to 6000 Hz. Directivity only above 4000 Hz is not going to have much impact. 2000 Hz is about the highest that I can see any benefit and then you should have a woofer at least 8" below that. Better would be a 10" woofer and a waveguide above about 1000 Hz. Then you will see some significant improvement. For your situation even more directivity, like that from a 12" or 15" is going to work the best. Sorry, not what you want to hear, but you have a very difficult situation. Simple solutions aren't going to make much difference.
4000 Hz is pretty high for directivity to do much good. Your auditory acuity is greatest from about 1000 - 3000 Hz and fairly important from about 500 Hz to 6000 Hz. Directivity only above 4000 Hz is not going to have much impact.
My thinking was that running a 6.5” *up to 4000 Hz, as opposed to only up to say 2000 Hz would provide sufficient directivity. Thanks for the real picture
I recall about six months back, someone mentioned a moderately priced combined driver waveguide that can handle from 1000 Hz up, but at the time had no need for one, so don’t recall what it was (a Sellenium??). Does anyone know of any?
My thinking was that running a 6.5” *up to 4000 Hz, as opposed to only up to say 2000 Hz would provide sufficient directivity. Thanks for the real picture
I recall about six months back, someone mentioned a moderately priced combined driver waveguide that can handle from 1000 Hz up, but at the time had no need for one, so don’t recall what it was (a Sellenium??). Does anyone know of any?
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