Ello all,
I’ve been pondering a speaker build for the last 6 months and while these forums are a great resource although you’ve almost scared me off
While I’m not an audiophile and don’t have that level of kit, I would best describe what I want as “decent sounding” I’m currently using a nad 3020 with some 2 way kenwoods I got in the mid 90’s the amp has changed a few times but the speakers have remained, I also use a cheapy richer sounds gale 8” sub to cover the lower end of things, this tends to get used for either vinyl or mp3s and gaming on my pc. My initial thoughts were to build a smallish 2-way PA type speaker a 7 or 8” driver in a mid size stand mount either ported or sealed, The idea being i would be able to ditch the sub and the pain in the backside wiring it needs.
Having done some thorough reading of threads here it would seem that picking my own drivers is a no no as the crossover design is somewhat more of a complex beast. I appreciate that the advice to folks in my position (1st build) is to follow an established design. Looking at alternatives I started thinking about full range using some tang band bamboo drivers but this approach would probably mean keeping or upgrading the sub
So now I have a few alternatives. I ask the advice of folks here as to which is worth pursuing
1) Build a system to my original idea either by finding some plans that fit the bill or use a pre made crossover which seems a sin here so I’m interested as to how bad it could end up this way.
2) Something with a fullrange driver, Cyburgs Needle took my fancy looking at the different designs. but this approach would mean keeping my sub and I have no idea of how a fullrange would sound.
3) I had an idea of building something using a fullrange driver such as this Tang Band W5-1611SA with one of these Tang Band W5-1126SC in the same enclosure to cover the lower end of things. This would be in a ported enclosure. I’m not sure if this approach would work but in my (limited) understanding the crossover should be a fair bit simpler
4) It occurred to me that I could give my current speakers a new enclosure with identical dimensions internally to what they are in now, to spruce em up a bit and to get that “shiny new thing”TM feeling. I might undertake this aswell as a new build in order to get a handle on speaker building its more a case of whether this is worthwhile and how much scope I have for messing with the enclosure design
I have a basic understanding of the concepts involved in building speakers and diy audio in general but having not dipped my toe in the water as yet I’m learing from new on pretty much everything, So please be gentle.
Ta in advance
I’ve been pondering a speaker build for the last 6 months and while these forums are a great resource although you’ve almost scared me off
While I’m not an audiophile and don’t have that level of kit, I would best describe what I want as “decent sounding” I’m currently using a nad 3020 with some 2 way kenwoods I got in the mid 90’s the amp has changed a few times but the speakers have remained, I also use a cheapy richer sounds gale 8” sub to cover the lower end of things, this tends to get used for either vinyl or mp3s and gaming on my pc. My initial thoughts were to build a smallish 2-way PA type speaker a 7 or 8” driver in a mid size stand mount either ported or sealed, The idea being i would be able to ditch the sub and the pain in the backside wiring it needs.
Having done some thorough reading of threads here it would seem that picking my own drivers is a no no as the crossover design is somewhat more of a complex beast. I appreciate that the advice to folks in my position (1st build) is to follow an established design. Looking at alternatives I started thinking about full range using some tang band bamboo drivers but this approach would probably mean keeping or upgrading the sub
So now I have a few alternatives. I ask the advice of folks here as to which is worth pursuing
1) Build a system to my original idea either by finding some plans that fit the bill or use a pre made crossover which seems a sin here so I’m interested as to how bad it could end up this way.
2) Something with a fullrange driver, Cyburgs Needle took my fancy looking at the different designs. but this approach would mean keeping my sub and I have no idea of how a fullrange would sound.
3) I had an idea of building something using a fullrange driver such as this Tang Band W5-1611SA with one of these Tang Band W5-1126SC in the same enclosure to cover the lower end of things. This would be in a ported enclosure. I’m not sure if this approach would work but in my (limited) understanding the crossover should be a fair bit simpler
4) It occurred to me that I could give my current speakers a new enclosure with identical dimensions internally to what they are in now, to spruce em up a bit and to get that “shiny new thing”TM feeling. I might undertake this aswell as a new build in order to get a handle on speaker building its more a case of whether this is worthwhile and how much scope I have for messing with the enclosure design
I have a basic understanding of the concepts involved in building speakers and diy audio in general but having not dipped my toe in the water as yet I’m learing from new on pretty much everything, So please be gentle.
Ta in advance
You left out another alternative:
Buy a kit that includes drivers and the designed crossover for them.
Some kits have you make the cab, some include completed cabs or "knocked down" for your assembly.
You have the advantage of the experiences and reports from an existing user base.
I'm not sure what you have available in the U.K. but in the U.S. you have inexpensive kits from Parts Express to more upscale offerings from Madisound and Zalytron that have been created by top designers.
This is a fairly safe DIY entry path, and can save money and frustration, on a 1st effort. Confidence builder too.
My 2p
Buy a kit that includes drivers and the designed crossover for them.
Some kits have you make the cab, some include completed cabs or "knocked down" for your assembly.
You have the advantage of the experiences and reports from an existing user base.
I'm not sure what you have available in the U.K. but in the U.S. you have inexpensive kits from Parts Express to more upscale offerings from Madisound and Zalytron that have been created by top designers.
This is a fairly safe DIY entry path, and can save money and frustration, on a 1st effort. Confidence builder too.
My 2p
pre-made crossovers - would be totally hit & miss
'fullrange' drivers - don't cover either freq extreme & tend to be shouty in the upper mids, which requires a filter...
a stand mount takes up the same room as a floor stander, if you want to ditch the sub build a 2.5 or 3 way, which will need a reasonable sized cab, & because these are somewhat complex, follow an existing design.
If you want to learn about crossovers, I'll post a bunch of links that will help.
If you want a step up from your existing speakers, be sure to use good quality drivers in your build - this makes a huge difference,
cheap drivers can be made to do pretty good stuff, but nowhere near as well as well designed ones.
Depends on whether you just want a good pair of speakers, or want to learn about the intricacies of design - you've obviously done a lot of reading here, so I suspect a bit of the latter?
'fullrange' drivers - don't cover either freq extreme & tend to be shouty in the upper mids, which requires a filter...
a stand mount takes up the same room as a floor stander, if you want to ditch the sub build a 2.5 or 3 way, which will need a reasonable sized cab, & because these are somewhat complex, follow an existing design.
If you want to learn about crossovers, I'll post a bunch of links that will help.
If you want a step up from your existing speakers, be sure to use good quality drivers in your build - this makes a huge difference,
cheap drivers can be made to do pretty good stuff, but nowhere near as well as well designed ones.
Depends on whether you just want a good pair of speakers, or want to learn about the intricacies of design - you've obviously done a lot of reading here, so I suspect a bit of the latter?
While I'm still awake:
Getting started in Crossover Design
The basics (You've got to understand the rules before you can break them
http://sound.westhost.com/lr-passive.htm
choosing xover point:
http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Articles/xover article/xpointmain.htm
Baffle Step Compensation: http://sound.westhost.com/bafflestep.htm
Getting it done:
Jay has a page on designing xovers using manufacturers specs without measuring:
http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/DesigningXO.htm
Calculators:
http://ccs.exl.info/calc_cr.html#second
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm
Measurement freeware:
Synrta - http://libinst.com/SynRTA.htm
ARTA http://www.fesb.hr/~mateljan/arta/download.htm
ARTA Jig - http://zobsky.blogspot.com/2008/01/simple-loudspeaker-measurement-jig-for.html
Examples from the designs of others can be quite instructive:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
http://www.rjbaudio.com/projects.html
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/
Getting started in Crossover Design
The basics (You've got to understand the rules before you can break them
http://sound.westhost.com/lr-passive.htm
choosing xover point:
http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Articles/xover article/xpointmain.htm
Baffle Step Compensation: http://sound.westhost.com/bafflestep.htm
Getting it done:
Jay has a page on designing xovers using manufacturers specs without measuring:
http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/DesigningXO.htm
Calculators:
http://ccs.exl.info/calc_cr.html#second
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-Lpad.htm
Measurement freeware:
Synrta - http://libinst.com/SynRTA.htm
ARTA http://www.fesb.hr/~mateljan/arta/download.htm
ARTA Jig - http://zobsky.blogspot.com/2008/01/simple-loudspeaker-measurement-jig-for.html
Examples from the designs of others can be quite instructive:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
http://www.rjbaudio.com/projects.html
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/
OK hers a thought for you.
make a couple of lists, the good points of your current set-up and the bad points.
Make another list, what you want to acheive, maybe check yor bank balance.
If you are happy: almost; with the sound of your mid perhaps we can help you tweak it, if its the messy wiring that makes you unhappy perhaps you can make it permanent{- incorporate the existing sub ( I assume you have a powered unit with built in crossover and speaker level inputs and outputs )
One of the first things I do when I aquire a set of spekers is to pull the woofer out and have a look inside the box. and I have to assume here that it is a box and not injection moulded plastic.
Cheap boxes can be improved withsome little low cost tweaks that are in themselves a lesson and part of the learning process.
If the boxs are just that, glue blocks set in the corners can help a lo and cost little except swearing angd cursing and a little glue.
The next simple tweak is a little damping inside the box, foam. or BAF or polyester wadding or fibre glass; all have been used, and often the foam can be salvaged from packaging, air conditioning ducts use a polyester insulation that works.
There are lots of things you can do before you build your firt pair.
regards and welcome
Ted
make a couple of lists, the good points of your current set-up and the bad points.
Make another list, what you want to acheive, maybe check yor bank balance.
If you are happy: almost; with the sound of your mid perhaps we can help you tweak it, if its the messy wiring that makes you unhappy perhaps you can make it permanent{- incorporate the existing sub ( I assume you have a powered unit with built in crossover and speaker level inputs and outputs )
One of the first things I do when I aquire a set of spekers is to pull the woofer out and have a look inside the box. and I have to assume here that it is a box and not injection moulded plastic.
Cheap boxes can be improved withsome little low cost tweaks that are in themselves a lesson and part of the learning process.
If the boxs are just that, glue blocks set in the corners can help a lo and cost little except swearing angd cursing and a little glue.
The next simple tweak is a little damping inside the box, foam. or BAF or polyester wadding or fibre glass; all have been used, and often the foam can be salvaged from packaging, air conditioning ducts use a polyester insulation that works.
There are lots of things you can do before you build your firt pair.
regards and welcome
Ted
Cheers for the replies & links I’ve had a brief skim through and given that I’m more competent with a router than a soldering iron (and not so great with either). Its kinda made me decide that a complete new build is probably not the best thing to get my feet wet with. So my plan is to go with building a new enclosure for my current speakers which have served me well. I have no idea where the stand on the scale of nice > nasty but I’m pretty happy with what they do and what they are.
They are pair of Kenwood LS-200G speakers seemingly unknown to the internet, our friend google doesn’t seem to know what they are
These are specs I got from the attached german product flyer
2 way bass reflex design
130mm woofer
25mm dome tweeter
Impedance 4ohms (an oddity to me)
Frequency response 60hz – 20Khz
Sensitivity 87 db/w/m
Crossover Frequency 3500hz
And now to save myself 4000 words
The speaker itself
The woofer
It looks terrible in the pics, they aren’t in the cleanest state in the world but black things + flash makes em 10x worse
If I were to keep the internal dimensions and port the same I imagine the build should be pretty straightforward
I’m also interested in what scope there is for adjustment to the design keeping the current crossover and drivers
They are pair of Kenwood LS-200G speakers seemingly unknown to the internet, our friend google doesn’t seem to know what they are
These are specs I got from the attached german product flyer
2 way bass reflex design
130mm woofer
25mm dome tweeter
Impedance 4ohms (an oddity to me)
Frequency response 60hz – 20Khz
Sensitivity 87 db/w/m
Crossover Frequency 3500hz
And now to save myself 4000 words
The speaker itself
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The woofer
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
It looks terrible in the pics, they aren’t in the cleanest state in the world but black things + flash makes em 10x worse
If I were to keep the internal dimensions and port the same I imagine the build should be pretty straightforward
I’m also interested in what scope there is for adjustment to the design keeping the current crossover and drivers
Sorry for 2 consectutive posts my other is under moderation so i cant edit it
@ moondog, what you suggest is pretty much what I did i decided that its one of my major reasons was to replace the somewhat battered speakers i had atm so a new enclosure should solve that.
sound wise I'm pretty content with both the speakers and sub but I'm not opossed to doing some tweaking
The wiring of the sub is my main irk really as the amp has no pre outs so i have to use either the high level inputs on it or i have in the past used the tape loop
I've posted on the amp forum asking about the feasability of adding some pre-outs to the amp so i'll see how that goes
@ moondog, what you suggest is pretty much what I did i decided that its one of my major reasons was to replace the somewhat battered speakers i had atm so a new enclosure should solve that.
sound wise I'm pretty content with both the speakers and sub but I'm not opossed to doing some tweaking
The wiring of the sub is my main irk really as the amp has no pre outs so i have to use either the high level inputs on it or i have in the past used the tape loop
I've posted on the amp forum asking about the feasability of adding some pre-outs to the amp so i'll see how that goes
Sorry; but I'm a little confused by the pictures, which is the woofer you'll be using?
The picture of the box shows a round driver the other a 'sqound' one ( Round with squared shoulders/corners)
The one labelled "Kenwood" looks like an Elac/KEF/Vifa driver, a lot of manufacturers used that squared off frame.
The box itself looks OK and if you'e already tweaked the inside why not just do a pretty-up??
Is the box wood veneer or PVC/paper?? cos if it's real veneer a light sand and varnish may work in the short term
The picture of the box shows a round driver the other a 'sqound' one ( Round with squared shoulders/corners)
The one labelled "Kenwood" looks like an Elac/KEF/Vifa driver, a lot of manufacturers used that squared off frame.
The box itself looks OK and if you'e already tweaked the inside why not just do a pretty-up??
Is the box wood veneer or PVC/paper?? cos if it's real veneer a light sand and varnish may work in the short term
The difference in the woofer frames had me for a bit, but there is a decorative bezel hiding the frame... the tweeter looks like a Foster imitating a Vifa,,, the woof could be from any of a number of OEMs -- any idea what vintage these are? I'm tempted to call the 743TM a date code, but 1974 is likely too old for these.
I have some Malaysian Easttechs that look similar, but then i have quitye a few similar looking drivers with unknow OEMs...
Can you post a pic of the box without the drivers?
dave
I have some Malaysian Easttechs that look similar, but then i have quitye a few similar looking drivers with unknow OEMs...
Can you post a pic of the box without the drivers?
dave
Just my opinion, on your decision
Perhaps I don't understand the rationale for taking old OEM drivers from a functioning speaker and building a different cab for them.
For less than $20 US each, I can find a better 5" driver and a better 1" tweeter - especially if you catch sales & liquidations from a "famous" makers production run.
In the $150 a pair range you can get a kit that offers a 6 .5" woofer and 1-1/8" dome tweeter ( inc. cabs).
For $560 pair ( w/cabs ) you can get a mini monitor designed by Dr. D'Appolito. The cabs are $240, crossovers; drivers are approx $320.
Cabs comprise about 40 - 50% of a kit's cost, and a big part of shipping because of the bulk/weight. If you can make cabs the cost savings can be substantial.
I am a huge fan of MTM's and after Dr. D'Appolito published articles in SB magazine, I made them for friends and family.
IME: an inexpensive MTM ( $100 - $200 parts ) is superior to a typical bookshelf 2 way made from the drivers that you are working with.
From my perspective the effort to guild these drivers will not justify the work.
Again, my opinion
Perhaps I don't understand the rationale for taking old OEM drivers from a functioning speaker and building a different cab for them.
For less than $20 US each, I can find a better 5" driver and a better 1" tweeter - especially if you catch sales & liquidations from a "famous" makers production run.
In the $150 a pair range you can get a kit that offers a 6 .5" woofer and 1-1/8" dome tweeter ( inc. cabs).
For $560 pair ( w/cabs ) you can get a mini monitor designed by Dr. D'Appolito. The cabs are $240, crossovers; drivers are approx $320.
Cabs comprise about 40 - 50% of a kit's cost, and a big part of shipping because of the bulk/weight. If you can make cabs the cost savings can be substantial.
I am a huge fan of MTM's and after Dr. D'Appolito published articles in SB magazine, I made them for friends and family.
IME: an inexpensive MTM ( $100 - $200 parts ) is superior to a typical bookshelf 2 way made from the drivers that you are working with.
From my perspective the effort to guild these drivers will not justify the work.
Again, my opinion
Here are some more pics
Speaker minus drivers
Inside and the crossover
The tweeter
Hk I understand your point of view and i fully understand that you cant polish a turd I'm trying to guage whether this is worth doing
That being said I'm fine with the sound of these speakers just not thier looks so for the cost of the mdf (£20-30 my guess) and paint (have already) to re-home em i dont see it as being a problem.
I saw Tangent Evo 4 and like the look of em but i realised that what i have is probably as good bar the funky looks.
Speaker minus drivers
Inside and the crossover
The tweeter
Hk I understand your point of view and i fully understand that you cant polish a turd I'm trying to guage whether this is worth doing
That being said I'm fine with the sound of these speakers just not thier looks so for the cost of the mdf (£20-30 my guess) and paint (have already) to re-home em i dont see it as being a problem.
I saw Tangent Evo 4 and like the look of em but i realised that what i have is probably as good bar the funky looks.
Looks like you are on your way...
I see room for improvement in that crossover.
Those caps are very cheap ( roughly 50 cents each ). Replace these with some good polypropylene caps, and you will notice better detail and a "veil lift" less grit etc. That's been my experience with stock crossovers upgrades.
For $20 or less you can replace all the caps in the signal path. for a little more you can try some "bypassing" on the tweeter section.
I see room for improvement in that crossover.
Those caps are very cheap ( roughly 50 cents each ). Replace these with some good polypropylene caps, and you will notice better detail and a "veil lift" less grit etc. That's been my experience with stock crossovers upgrades.
For $20 or less you can replace all the caps in the signal path. for a little more you can try some "bypassing" on the tweeter section.
You could simply revamp the existing boxes, make a new face plate from ply (blonde finish?), do the same on the back to give them more strength, line the box with felt, then tweek the crossover - definitely replace the electrolytic caps.
If you want to get carried away you could veneer the boxes,
If you want a change of shape and can measure the T/S parameters, you could try for an EBS alignment in an effort to get lower bass; this will require a larger box. (Probably not worth the effort with this woofer, but it's fun to try... I've played with several similar drivers and some can do pretty well in boxes different from original which are usually too small)
If you want to get carried away you could veneer the boxes,
If you want a change of shape and can measure the T/S parameters, you could try for an EBS alignment in an effort to get lower bass; this will require a larger box. (Probably not worth the effort with this woofer, but it's fun to try... I've played with several similar drivers and some can do pretty well in boxes different from original which are usually too small)
Things are somwhat clearer and I've not done anything that isnt undoable to the speakers yet, the rubber bezel came off one of em and i thought before I glue it back on I'd have a look inside.
The comments regarding the crossover arent encouraging as to be frank while I can do some basic electonics I have to push myself to understand whats going on. So i was trying (wrongly it seems) to avoid messing with crossovers. whereas the idea of building a new enclosure doesnt worry me.
So while I still may build em a new enclosure dimensionally the same as the old as a practice so to speak. Personally I feel theres not a huge difference to building a whole enclosure over replacing and making newer panels fit with an older one. Hiding the fugly frame is probably the biggest challenge here. and If everything goes tits up then i can always just go back to the old enclosures.
Putting the old to one side for now and thinking to what I could do longer term, I figured that it would be feasable to bi-amp my nad 3020e in mono mode (seeing as i'm deaf in one ear stereo is wasted on me) in my understanding that could simplify things as far as crossovers go or i could run a pair of Fullrange in parallel on one channel and a sub on the other.
The comments regarding the crossover arent encouraging as to be frank while I can do some basic electonics I have to push myself to understand whats going on. So i was trying (wrongly it seems) to avoid messing with crossovers. whereas the idea of building a new enclosure doesnt worry me.
So while I still may build em a new enclosure dimensionally the same as the old as a practice so to speak. Personally I feel theres not a huge difference to building a whole enclosure over replacing and making newer panels fit with an older one. Hiding the fugly frame is probably the biggest challenge here. and If everything goes tits up then i can always just go back to the old enclosures.
Putting the old to one side for now and thinking to what I could do longer term, I figured that it would be feasable to bi-amp my nad 3020e in mono mode (seeing as i'm deaf in one ear stereo is wasted on me) in my understanding that could simplify things as far as crossovers go or i could run a pair of Fullrange in parallel on one channel and a sub on the other.
""Putting the old to one side for now and thinking to what I could do longer term, I figured that it would be feasable to bi-amp my nad 3020e in mono mode (seeing as i'm deaf in one ear stereo is wasted on me)""
Re the above quote, you are quite wrong, I was in the artillery and almost toally deaf in one ear myself and stereo still matters, because most of us don't have total hearing loss the informatiom we receive matters.
If you do want to go mono no problem, but not with those drivers.
I'm totally with Peter here, spend the time effort and money on a refurbishment of the boxes you have.
I have successfully covered old boxes with a ggooood quality ply' glued onto the existing box sandd back stained and polished they can look terrific.
Re the above quote, you are quite wrong, I was in the artillery and almost toally deaf in one ear myself and stereo still matters, because most of us don't have total hearing loss the informatiom we receive matters.
If you do want to go mono no problem, but not with those drivers.
I'm totally with Peter here, spend the time effort and money on a refurbishment of the boxes you have.
I have successfully covered old boxes with a ggooood quality ply' glued onto the existing box sandd back stained and polished they can look terrific.
You can certainly build a much better box than they have (or get creative and repurpose something... a quad of circular wooden salad bowls or some ceramic posts for instance), XO can be improved, drivers can be tweaked up.
Worth it just for the learning experience.
If you can get T/S parameters measured a better box design might be possible.
dave
Worth it just for the learning experience.
If you can get T/S parameters measured a better box design might be possible.
dave
Which drivers were you refering to? , the ones i have atm or some fullrange ones?
Because i've been doing more digging and found that the drivers for this Cyburgs Sticks are fairly easily available from spectrumaudio.de. Wheras parts express have a min order for international shipping havent looked at madisounds shipping thou. Plus the pound has taken a hammering vs the dollar so with duties and whatnot buying from the states might not be so practical for now.
With the cyburgs the build wouldnt cost much more than tarting up my current speakers with new enclosures.
There are a few other options too as they seem to have the Tangband W5-1611SA available too
But I might give you folks some peace and b****r off to the fullrange section regarding building those
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