It's called valcromat. Or at least, that's one brand. There are probably others: http://www.avonplywood.co.uk/noframes/valchromat info.htm
I had the opportunity to take a tour of the Theil Audio factory this past weekend. They use whatever material has the best property to allow the ideal execution of a given design, considering both performance and cost factors. For most the their designs, that means MDF with veneer. For curved designs, like their 3.7 top of the line model, they use mostly plywood, because it is a curved cabinet and has to be shaped to that form. They also fold in various other materials at times, like 1/2" thick milled aluminum (3.7), phenolic, etc., typically for their baffles only.
One thing I found interesting is that they were still using machinery for some of their production that was built in 1946, along side 1/2 million dollar CNC machines! Whatever got the job done.
One thing I found interesting is that they were still using machinery for some of their production that was built in 1946, along side 1/2 million dollar CNC machines! Whatever got the job done.
dw8083 said:
Hi
I came across these the other day they use a JORDAN JX92S it a TL cabinet. They were in the magazine for £4000. Two JX92S cost $180.00 each. So how they got to £4000 i have no idea!
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://curvi-hifi.com/index.htm
Well, having built a pair of much less complicated curved cabinets, I could venture a guess.
Cost of drivers, cost of raw material, fabrication costs (looks like these would outweigh the other items), shipping, opportunity cost for invested money (infrastructure, materials inventory, employee costs, ...) and dealer mark-up, not to mention that they might want to make a profit.
It's sometimes worth sitting down and costing out what it would take to just get started manufacturing something like this (even in a small way) in a repeatable, reliable fashion. It's a lot different from making a one-off for one's own use.
My $0.02.
Regards.
Aengus
Aengus said:
Absolutely.
I've been messing around with some lamination ideas - making spherical enclosures from layers of MDF, and these techniques are always very wasteful on material.
I see from the website that they're cutting the parts from sheets of plywood (small chunks, repeated across a sheet). This means you then have to take time to glue them together just to form one layer, and then smooth everything off so each layer is flush - very time consuming.
Having said that... £4000 is a lot of cash for a pair of JX92S drivers, and I expect the difference in sound between those and a far less complex TL design would be minimal. However, they are genuine art pieces - and I'm looking to eventually go down that route, so I hope there are buyers around!
BTW Just took a look at your "Curved Harveys" thread. Very impressive.
Hi,
I agree £4000 for a pair of JX92S drivers is a lot. But I also agree that these are functional sculptural pieces there not doubt about it. And they have inspired me to continue to develop my stacking project .
Im not so sure though if it would be that time consuming. They have to options for assemble 1 they use some kind of jig to keep all laminated section aligned or 2 as the CNC routing is very precise the could have a few holes in the sections so that a long dowel can be put through the sections to aligned the section then quick sand over and I guess it would nice and smooth.
Aengus are you mad those are way more complex in there construction. I guess you spent a lot time spent on those well worth it though they look great! To create those two cut outs at the top and bottom of the side is very difficult indeed and it look very well finished. Nice Job!
Those curvies are CNC all the way (good use of modern machining). So to me I see that a simple stack, glue, clamp, sand and then off to spray shop to be lacquered, simple and effective. CNC outsourcing very cheap these days. I've out sourced some laser cutting of aluminum and the costs of that I thought were very reasonable.
I agree £4000 for a pair of JX92S drivers is a lot. But I also agree that these are functional sculptural pieces there not doubt about it. And they have inspired me to continue to develop my stacking project .
Im not so sure though if it would be that time consuming. They have to options for assemble 1 they use some kind of jig to keep all laminated section aligned or 2 as the CNC routing is very precise the could have a few holes in the sections so that a long dowel can be put through the sections to aligned the section then quick sand over and I guess it would nice and smooth.
Aengus are you mad those are way more complex in there construction. I guess you spent a lot time spent on those well worth it though they look great!
To create those two cut outs at the top and bottom of the side is very difficult indeed and it look very well finished. Nice Job! Those curvies are CNC all the way (good use of modern machining). So to me I see that a simple stack, glue, clamp, sand and then off to spray shop to be lacquered, simple and effective. CNC outsourcing very cheap these days. I've out sourced some laser cutting of aluminum and the costs of that I thought were very reasonable.
Well, as I said towards the end of that thread, I'd be pleased to answer any questions about them except that one.
Thank you (and you, sploo) for the kind words. BTW, the cutouts were fairly easy, using a flush-cutting router bit - it was the walnut trim around the cutout's edges that was, um, a bit more work.
I agree that I wouldn't personally pay this much money for the curvi-hifi speakers - but they are surely not the only instance around of commercial speakers at 4000 quid with drivers worth much, much less. And they are clearly more complex in build than most speaker boxes, apart from the question of what the build process may have been.
There will always be a discrepancy between the cost of something and its price. How much of that discrepancy is marketing, and how much other (more justifiable?) factors, is an open question in this case. Though the design of these doesn't really do it for me, I applaud anyone who tries to create non-box commercial speakers, and I wish them well.
Who knows, if they create a market maybe we can all make businesses out of our oddball approaches.
Regards.
Aengus
I thought for many years that any speaker that would cost more than the couple hundred bucks generic brands cost would have solid wood or some exotic material. I just made that assumption for a long time. When I was about 21 I went to an audio show and had the opportunity to disect some rather expensive brand name cabs. Granted these weren't exotic speakers, but I couldn't have been more dissapointed. They were either sealed or bass reflex cabinets with veneered particle board of dismally thin material and the back panels on 2/3 of them was a piece of 1/4 inch hardboard.
I have never seen a commercial speaker (other than pro use) made with ply.
I have some opinions on what I think sounds best, based only on experience. Those are only opinions and certainly not backed by any measurements. I have built speakers out of material ranging from 1/4 inch ply to 3 layers of laminated HDF and Ply and Cement board.
I guess this is probably one of the most highly debated subjects in audio. One subject that my experience has taught me is as much opinion as fact in a lot of cases. The bottom line I have found is that you don't want the cabinet to be weak and vibrating. Past that, each to their own. I do like to brace my enclosures and I do like them to be built from solid enough material that they don't vibrate violently. After that it is an experiment. One can always find an example of something that sounded good built with one or another material.
For the record, my favorite speakers have been built from real wood panels, but boy is that a beast to get right, lol. Only reason for that has been aesthetic. I can't say they sounded better than speakers I have heard built from particle. (to date, the best I have ever heard was built from different panels of particle and MDF). I am currently working on a pair of speakers built from ply.
I have never seen a commercial speaker (other than pro use) made with ply.
I have some opinions on what I think sounds best, based only on experience. Those are only opinions and certainly not backed by any measurements. I have built speakers out of material ranging from 1/4 inch ply to 3 layers of laminated HDF and Ply and Cement board.
I guess this is probably one of the most highly debated subjects in audio. One subject that my experience has taught me is as much opinion as fact in a lot of cases. The bottom line I have found is that you don't want the cabinet to be weak and vibrating. Past that, each to their own. I do like to brace my enclosures and I do like them to be built from solid enough material that they don't vibrate violently. After that it is an experiment. One can always find an example of something that sounded good built with one or another material.
For the record, my favorite speakers have been built from real wood panels, but boy is that a beast to get right, lol. Only reason for that has been aesthetic. I can't say they sounded better than speakers I have heard built from particle. (to date, the best I have ever heard was built from different panels of particle and MDF). I am currently working on a pair of speakers built from ply.
bm0rg said:
Alas, CNC isn't the panacea that some would have you believe (and until I got one, I must admit I was partly under that illusion too).
Setup and cleanup of a job often takes more time than the actual cutting. For a job with lots of small parts cut from a sheet, you need to leave small tabs on each piece (or use an onion skinning technique) to stop them moving. Vacuum hold-down isn't very practical for this, and the only other alternative is probably laser - which has its own set of problems.
Every one of those parts needs to be removed from the sheet (either with a knife, or maybe a small saw) and the tabs cleaned up (I use the router table with a trimming bit). Also, depending on the cutting bit used, you may need to sand off any strands of fibre from the parts.
Basically, a 10 minute cutting job can easily take an hour to produce finish parts.
Also, using dowels can help to align parts, but it's only really good enough to stop them moving while gluing. Getting sufficient accuracy to only require a little sanding is incredibly difficult - generally it takes quite a bit of sanding, the use of a router trimming bit, and/or a scraper. Even 1/2mm of misalignment will show on a finish, and sanding off 1/2mm of 19mm thick ply on several sheets isn't a 5 minute job.
musgofasa said:
Remember that with shipping you pay for one of two things - weight, and size. Speakers are large boxes, and using thick MDF would make them very heavy, and therefore more expensive to ship and handle. There is obviously the incentive to make mass produced speakers as light as you can get away with - something that's less of a problem for the very small volume guys, and for us DIYers!
Sploo,
I couldn't agree more man. I have always thought the CNC would eliminate so much work, but the more work I do, the more I realize it's limits. Set up is just about as time consuming as finish work and only really saves a lot of time if you are doing the same patern repeatedly for a lot of parts. I always thought a CNC would make working with ply easier, but the ply itself causes problems that are difficult to fix.
MDF and particle correct these problems, but come with their own issues like weight and size in shipping considerations. I work for UPS so I know ALL about those lol.
I guess, in terms of commercial speakers, it comes down to the demographic you are marketing too. If you want to sell to the masses, you could use a higher grade component to give you some real ability to talk about a better product and then try to avoid discussion of your enclosures. If you are marketing to a niche, you could work with just the cabinet and the components might be less important. And then there are the Wilsons, Goldmunds and Levinsons of the world where cost isn't the object and the customers are far fewer. At this point in my career, I am actually looking more towards that customer base. I want to build a commercial speaker or work with custom set ups only at this point. Unfortunately, the market for that is small and getting smaller I fear. Wish I could find a way to market more to DIYers etc and have enough time to make a decent living. When profit margins are small, though, the workload must be higher to make up for it. I suppose this is the crux of business life such as it is lol.
I couldn't agree more man. I have always thought the CNC would eliminate so much work, but the more work I do, the more I realize it's limits. Set up is just about as time consuming as finish work and only really saves a lot of time if you are doing the same patern repeatedly for a lot of parts. I always thought a CNC would make working with ply easier, but the ply itself causes problems that are difficult to fix.
MDF and particle correct these problems, but come with their own issues like weight and size in shipping considerations. I work for UPS so I know ALL about those lol.
I guess, in terms of commercial speakers, it comes down to the demographic you are marketing too. If you want to sell to the masses, you could use a higher grade component to give you some real ability to talk about a better product and then try to avoid discussion of your enclosures. If you are marketing to a niche, you could work with just the cabinet and the components might be less important. And then there are the Wilsons, Goldmunds and Levinsons of the world where cost isn't the object and the customers are far fewer. At this point in my career, I am actually looking more towards that customer base. I want to build a commercial speaker or work with custom set ups only at this point. Unfortunately, the market for that is small and getting smaller I fear. Wish I could find a way to market more to DIYers etc and have enough time to make a decent living. When profit margins are small, though, the workload must be higher to make up for it. I suppose this is the crux of business life such as it is lol.
musgofasa said:
Yep. There's so many things you can do that you would never consider doing without CNC, but even with it, things often take plenty of time. My machine is pretty small (approx 3 1/4' x 2') cutting area and I pine for an 8'x4' machine - it would cut down on so much loading and unloading. But then I guess I'd just attempt more adventurous stuff, that takes longer to setup and finish.
musgofasa said:
Yeah, that's the route I'm looking at - small volume, high margin; based on a decent design with good components, but sold mainly on the basis of interesting looks. No idea how realistic that is, but I'm working towards a product, if it sells, great, if it doesn't, oh well, I've made something good, and I'll keep up my day job!
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