Newbie here....
As you all know, there are numerous brands of speakers available at various price points.
It appears that, in general (and based on my limited reading), DIY-ers often speak well more on Scan-speaks and Seas over other bands.
So my questions are:
1. Are certain brands characterized with certain tonal characteristics? For Ex. (Hypothetical only) Scan-Speaks Mids/Woofs typically have the best mid tones, Eton woofs are generally better over others for subs, etc…you get the idea!
2. If so, then what are the strengths of some of these leading brands
3. Between the minimal reading I have had so far, I haven’t read a lot on Morel (as compared to Peerless, Scan-Speak and Seas)? So what do those with experience think about Morel? What are the *typical* characteristics of Morel? Is it a “Premium” brand? How are the mids *typically* on a Morel mid-range?
I perfectly understand that the sound is defined by lots of different variables beyond just the driver brand. So please receive my questions in the context of “Typical Brand/Product Line Characteristics” assuming most other variables…well…”constant“!
Those of you who have an inclination for a sweet, detailed, not so laid back and neither forward/pronounced mid-range freqs (delivered by either mid range speakers or a wider range woofers), what brand+product line do you generally prefer?
Please be kind if the above questions don’t make sense as I am a newbie and have just started reading up on forums.
Also, if questions similar to mine have already been discussed elsewhere, do please point me to such discussions. I did search, but as I said I didn't come across much on Morels'.
Thanks for your time and patience with my questions.
As you all know, there are numerous brands of speakers available at various price points.
It appears that, in general (and based on my limited reading), DIY-ers often speak well more on Scan-speaks and Seas over other bands.
So my questions are:
1. Are certain brands characterized with certain tonal characteristics? For Ex. (Hypothetical only) Scan-Speaks Mids/Woofs typically have the best mid tones, Eton woofs are generally better over others for subs, etc…you get the idea!
2. If so, then what are the strengths of some of these leading brands
3. Between the minimal reading I have had so far, I haven’t read a lot on Morel (as compared to Peerless, Scan-Speak and Seas)? So what do those with experience think about Morel? What are the *typical* characteristics of Morel? Is it a “Premium” brand? How are the mids *typically* on a Morel mid-range?
I perfectly understand that the sound is defined by lots of different variables beyond just the driver brand. So please receive my questions in the context of “Typical Brand/Product Line Characteristics” assuming most other variables…well…”constant“!
Those of you who have an inclination for a sweet, detailed, not so laid back and neither forward/pronounced mid-range freqs (delivered by either mid range speakers or a wider range woofers), what brand+product line do you generally prefer?
Please be kind if the above questions don’t make sense as I am a newbie and have just started reading up on forums.
Also, if questions similar to mine have already been discussed elsewhere, do please point me to such discussions. I did search, but as I said I didn't come across much on Morels'.
Thanks for your time and patience with my questions.
That's kind of like asking us what is the best car to buy. Everyones preference is different so it's really up to you. The idea behind a transducer is to faithfully reproduce what's been recorded without colouring the sound. It also should have a flat response and low distortion. Often the more expensive drivers do this better than the cheap ones.
I think the manufacturers can be labeled as having a certain sound but more often you can tell the difference between cone materials more so than whom they are manufactured by. I know this isn't much help but you've asked a difficult question. Hopefully others will be more insightful but remember it's all about preference.
I think the manufacturers can be labeled as having a certain sound but more often you can tell the difference between cone materials more so than whom they are manufactured by. I know this isn't much help but you've asked a difficult question. Hopefully others will be more insightful but remember it's all about preference.
Cal Weldon said:
First, Thanks for the response.
I will try and use the cars analogy to see if I my questions will make more sense -
* Ferraris, Porches, Lambos', Jags, etc. are "fast pepy cars".
* Honda, Toyota, Ford, etc. are quality cars
* Hyundai, Suzuki, Scion, etc. are value line cars
People will differ on opinions and implementation will contribute a lot to realization as well...but you see..there's always a general opinion.
Another perspective could be the driver manufacturer's expertise. A specific manufacturer could be very strong in Sub drivers coz. they, as a company, have focused a lot more into that area for research. Another company could be great with their Tweeter lineup (Doesn't mean other brands are bad...it just suggests that tweeters are a strength of a certain company)
Cal Weldon said:
Makes sense.
So 2 more questions to be added to the list above...
4. Which cone materials (and magnet materials) are best suited for what freq range?
5. Given a cone material, what are the advantages and disadvantages of that material?
if this 5th question could be too much to answer here, pointers to online resources where I could read up would help a ton too!
Cal Weldon said:
No, please...ANY response can go a long way...like yours helped me elaborate a bit on my question and helped me ask 1 more.
In fact....thanks for the patience....am sure noobs show up every now and then and my fear is that, as a noob, I could be asking the same questions that have been asked over and over that no one has any interest left to answer anymore....
Thanks again.
dgshtav said:
Yes, very true
Too broad of a question. Tweeters are made from paper, aluminum, titanium, polycarbonate, silk, textiles, polyester, beryllium, diamond dust... No clear winners
Woofers are made with paper, poly, carbon fiber, aluminum, kevlar, quartz composite... No clear winners
Magnets are ceramic, alnico, neodymium and field coils. No clear winners
It must meet the requirements as laid out in the design goals which include moving mass and stiffness.
Not to worry, my knowledge base is well suited to the newbs.
Just glad you have an interest.
There are so many factors that go into a driver sounding good. The cone and magnet are but two of them. Basket material, voice coil former, the size and type of enamel wire, number of layers, the length and width, the surround material, the spider, the dust cap, the venting...the list goes on and we haven't even touched on the enclosure or lack thereof. Each designer has their own preferences and hopes you like and agree with their decision(s).
Just like cars.
Just like cars.
Cal Weldon said:
And paper itself is a composite material, and it is easy to add various ground-up materials to the paper slurry before the cone is molded. The paper can be made from hemp (the US Constitution was written on hemp paper, the most durable paper of the time), ground-up silk, cotton, or wool clothing, as well as wood pulp, and then the "additives" can be any collection of weird materials that strike the fancy of the driver designer. All kinds of stuff can be added to polypropylene as well, invariably with ludicrous advertising claims of this or that "wonder material".
Cone materials have traditionally been trade secrets, so it would take a laboratory analysis to determine what cones made in the 1930's were made of, or even cones in the 1950's. The finest and most durable art-book-grade papers of the pre-WWII era were made with hemp and ground-up clothing fibers ("rag" papers), so it wouldn't be surprising to see them in speaker cones, too. Wood pulp was always considered the lowest grade of paper because it was less chemically stable (due to processing residues) and more prone to tearing.
Thanks for chiming in Lynn.
You see dgshtav, there are even sub sets to the materials. Again we haven't even touched on laminates incorporating a honeycomb stabilizer or some rather eccentric or esoteric combinations of materials, but before this leads to ad nauseum, you can see why the questions were difficult to answer.
You see dgshtav, there are even sub sets to the materials. Again we haven't even touched on laminates incorporating a honeycomb stabilizer or some rather eccentric or esoteric combinations of materials, but before this leads to ad nauseum, you can see why the questions were difficult to answer.
OP: Since you specifically asked several times about Morel, I think you'll find they are very expensive in relation to the performance you get. Some models are just plain lousy, and you wonder how they got their reputation.
I'm not really sure where you're coming from or where you're going, but for $200-300 you could build several nice pairs of simple 2-ways with mid-woofers and tweeters of different cone materials from the Madisound and PE specials and close-outs (use a replaceable baffle for flexibility), and you might gain some useful practical experience and answers about the questions you've asked.
I'm not really sure where you're coming from or where you're going, but for $200-300 you could build several nice pairs of simple 2-ways with mid-woofers and tweeters of different cone materials from the Madisound and PE specials and close-outs (use a replaceable baffle for flexibility), and you might gain some useful practical experience and answers about the questions you've asked.
I would recommend you visit www.zaphaudio.com and read up on his driver tests and speaker designs - these will give you an idea of what makes a driver good and help you decide on which design/drivers to purchase, if that's your goal.
Not to mention that properties can alter over time, some old drivers seem to get better as they age,
So do some new ones and the opposite is also true, some of us are cash strapped and buy solely on price, for others cost is no object when the goal is perfection, and don't forget EVERYTHING is subjective and possibly subject to change as well, manufacturing isn't perfect neither are our ears, everything changes thru time.
I probably muddied the water for you here, if so I apologise, but the original question is relevant just hard to answer
So do some new ones and the opposite is also true, some of us are cash strapped and buy solely on price, for others cost is no object when the goal is perfection, and don't forget EVERYTHING is subjective and possibly subject to change as well, manufacturing isn't perfect neither are our ears, everything changes thru time.
I probably muddied the water for you here, if so I apologise, but the original question is relevant just hard to answer
Thanks guys for taking the time to respond.
My questions around brands stemmed from the following:
• Personally, am yet to hear a speaker whose mids I fell in love with. Not that I have come across many speakers – but I will say I have heard 4 different brands of speakers (not DIY) and mids are something that I feel can be/should be better (hence the specific question about mid)
• I am not onto a build yet. But I also need to understand the Brands+Product lines well received in the market and average price range on those and expected performance from the same for the $$. This helps me set an expectation – both around budget and performance for that budget.
• As I am not from this field, when I do a build, it would be working on some existing DIY design. Knowing desired brands/products lines/drivers helps search for and narrow down on such designs.
• Another thought that prompted the brands+product questions – For some reason, if I need to move on – will it be easier to roll-over a well received brand+product over others?
• The fact that there are hundreds of options when you look at any vendor – take PE for example. The prices for a specific type of driver range from $10 to $300 with huge price swings within different product lines from the same brand too. (In fact they are running some good deals on some Morels right now. Almost like 50% off over suggested retail. That explains the Morel Question.)
Cal’s note on cone/magnet materials helped as well since it makes me aware of another aspect that should be a consideration.
Speaking about materials, let me see if I can use the materials comparision as another analogy to give context to my questions around brands.
Here's what I found so far on the inet on material characteristics:
Diamond, Be are on the premium side. Have significantly higher damping factors and speed of sound over the other materials. The "speed of sound", to me, translates into how "crisp" and "tight" a note will be. Higher damping, to me, means faster decays (and less resonances??)
Conventional (read "normal" price range) tweeters are made of Mg, Al, Ti. Of the 3, Mg, appears to best on paper for damping but Ti appears to be best on paper for speed.
Now the observation of these characteristics are mere reflections of the material and are completely free of any influence by price, implementation, etc. I understand that a well executed implementation (both at the driver manufactuer level and crossover, enclosure building level) of Ti could sound as good as if not better results than a not so well executed Be or CVD implementation. The $$ are also completely different range.
But, Just like the above materials comparison has some merit in isolation of an implementation and materialistic factors, I was wondering if a manufacturer+product line strengths comparision might have some merits too.
Here’s some tidbits I read/inferred elsewhere on this/other forums:
• Scan-Speak Revelators are, in general, “better” than their conventional line
• Fountek’s ribbon tweets are well received
• Vifa’s dome tweets appear to be well received
• Peerless, based on their product offerings, are a value line
• Dayton, Eton are good candidates for subs.
• Morels CAN BE lousy (relative term….am sure influenced by their price/performance) as Tosh put it . And no, am not trying to quote Tosh on it as it’s not just Tosh who said it. I think I recall someone shooting down Morels in at least one other post (unless it was Tosh on that post too - )
These brand observations, if they mean anything, are mere opinions that were either shared directly or were suggested by what I have been reading. I am not implying/endorsing any of the brand characteristics here….am not qualified at all, let alone “enough”…so don’t shoot me down on this. And again, I perfectly understand that there are other, more significant variables at play.
I guess my brands related questions are too open eneded as you all mentioned.
Nevertheless, thanks a ton for your response and feedback. I aprpeciate it.
My questions around brands stemmed from the following:
• Personally, am yet to hear a speaker whose mids I fell in love with. Not that I have come across many speakers – but I will say I have heard 4 different brands of speakers (not DIY) and mids are something that I feel can be/should be better (hence the specific question about mid)
• I am not onto a build yet. But I also need to understand the Brands+Product lines well received in the market and average price range on those and expected performance from the same for the $$. This helps me set an expectation – both around budget and performance for that budget.
• As I am not from this field, when I do a build, it would be working on some existing DIY design. Knowing desired brands/products lines/drivers helps search for and narrow down on such designs.
• Another thought that prompted the brands+product questions – For some reason, if I need to move on – will it be easier to roll-over a well received brand+product over others?
• The fact that there are hundreds of options when you look at any vendor – take PE for example. The prices for a specific type of driver range from $10 to $300 with huge price swings within different product lines from the same brand too. (In fact they are running some good deals on some Morels right now. Almost like 50% off over suggested retail. That explains the Morel Question.)
Cal’s note on cone/magnet materials helped as well since it makes me aware of another aspect that should be a consideration.
Speaking about materials, let me see if I can use the materials comparision as another analogy to give context to my questions around brands.
Here's what I found so far on the inet on material characteristics:
Diamond, Be are on the premium side. Have significantly higher damping factors and speed of sound over the other materials. The "speed of sound", to me, translates into how "crisp" and "tight" a note will be. Higher damping, to me, means faster decays (and less resonances??)
Conventional (read "normal" price range) tweeters are made of Mg, Al, Ti. Of the 3, Mg, appears to best on paper for damping but Ti appears to be best on paper for speed.
Now the observation of these characteristics are mere reflections of the material and are completely free of any influence by price, implementation, etc. I understand that a well executed implementation (both at the driver manufactuer level and crossover, enclosure building level) of Ti could sound as good as if not better results than a not so well executed Be or CVD implementation. The $$ are also completely different range.
But, Just like the above materials comparison has some merit in isolation of an implementation and materialistic factors, I was wondering if a manufacturer+product line strengths comparision might have some merits too.
Here’s some tidbits I read/inferred elsewhere on this/other forums:
• Scan-Speak Revelators are, in general, “better” than their conventional line
• Fountek’s ribbon tweets are well received
• Vifa’s dome tweets appear to be well received
• Peerless, based on their product offerings, are a value line
• Dayton, Eton are good candidates for subs.
• Morels CAN BE lousy (relative term….am sure influenced by their price/performance) as Tosh put it . And no, am not trying to quote Tosh on it as it’s not just Tosh who said it. I think I recall someone shooting down Morels in at least one other post (unless it was Tosh on that post too -
)These brand observations, if they mean anything, are mere opinions that were either shared directly or were suggested by what I have been reading. I am not implying/endorsing any of the brand characteristics here….am not qualified at all, let alone “enough”…so don’t shoot me down on this. And again, I perfectly understand that there are other, more significant variables at play.
I guess my brands related questions are too open eneded as you all mentioned.
Nevertheless, thanks a ton for your response and feedback. I aprpeciate it.
Diaphragm material is just one aspect of driver engineering and not the sole determinant of quality - don't put all the emphasis on it. Motor design is huge and contributes greatly to such characteristics as distortion.
There are diminishing price/value returns as diaphragm material becomes more exotic - ceramic, diamond etc. are probably equalled/bettered by cheaper metals and even paper in those brands with well-designed motors.
There are diminishing price/value returns as diaphragm material becomes more exotic - ceramic, diamond etc. are probably equalled/bettered by cheaper metals and even paper in those brands with well-designed motors.
I've recently been of the opinion that a treated paper cone is the very best possible type of cone for reproducing midbass and midrange. This is because the randomly-oriented paper fibers dissipate energy in random directions, instead of in a straight line from the apex to the outer surface, where the surround must play a disproportionate role in damping cone edge vibrations.
However, the rubbing-together of the wood pulp fibers in the paper creates additional noise of its own ('cone cry'), so a slightly elastic damping-compound applied to the cone can do much to absorb the energy of the relative motion of the paper fibers against each other, effectively damping out the 'cone cry'. The amount of this treatment that is applied should be monitored carefully, since too much treatment will increase the mass of the cone unacceptably, and stiffness-to-weight ratio will be sacrificed.
Another cone material that follows this theory is Audax's HD-Aerogel cone material, which mixes wood, Kevlar (aramid) and carbon fibers together in a slightly elastic resin matrix. The longer the fibers are, the stiffer the cone can be, since the randomly-oriented fibers still lock together to provide tensile strength to the cone material.
However, the rubbing-together of the wood pulp fibers in the paper creates additional noise of its own ('cone cry'), so a slightly elastic damping-compound applied to the cone can do much to absorb the energy of the relative motion of the paper fibers against each other, effectively damping out the 'cone cry'. The amount of this treatment that is applied should be monitored carefully, since too much treatment will increase the mass of the cone unacceptably, and stiffness-to-weight ratio will be sacrificed.
Another cone material that follows this theory is Audax's HD-Aerogel cone material, which mixes wood, Kevlar (aramid) and carbon fibers together in a slightly elastic resin matrix. The longer the fibers are, the stiffer the cone can be, since the randomly-oriented fibers still lock together to provide tensile strength to the cone material.
dgshtav said:
You need hear a good single driver (oe nearly full-range) system with no XOs anywhere near the critical midrange... preferably ...
Taterworks said:
... with a driver treated to the same level as the one's i do (thanx Taterworks for describing a lot of what my drivers are all about...)
dave
PS: cone cry = cone self noise
The best mids I've heard are made from uncoated paper (and variants), namely the Peerless HDS Exclusive 5.5", Seas Excel Nextel 7", and Scanspeak Revelator 5.5 (uncoated large magnet version). The Vifa XG18 was also good but sounds congested at louder output. Paper just sounds so natural and detailed, assuming that the motor is good. Crossed low enough, the speaker just tends to disappear and you can't tell where the sound is coming from.
Stiffer cones like magnesium in the Seas Excel Mags are extremely neutral and detailed, with very precise imaging and sharp transient attack, but the soundstage is narrow. Dayton Reference series sounds warmer than the Seas Excels though with slightly less midrange clarity (still far better than most commercial designs though). Still, metal sounds too upfront for my tastes. Polypropelene is too laid back, paper is just right.
The 6.5" high efficiency paper midranges (made by various manufacterers like PHL, Audax, B&C, etc.) sound great also, but can't cross low. Or high.
Morel sucks. Never heard anything I liked made by them. Eton isn't that great either, though I use to use them in my car. They use primitive motor designs.
Regarding tweeters, small ribbons sound great but need high crossover points, typically around 3kHz. They sound very airy and transparent, with a nice top end sparkle. The Hiquphon and Peerless HDS dome tweeters also have this quality but the vast majority of dome tweeters sound dull. The mass of the tweeter dome/ribbon element plays a huge role in its sound yet does not seem to show up in distortion measurements.
For midbass, stiff cones rule. The Dayton Reference RS225 is the best that I've heard. I prefer it over the much more expensive Seas Excel and Scanspeak versions. The RS225 is warm, spacious, lush, detailed, high output, and cheap.
Stiffer cones like magnesium in the Seas Excel Mags are extremely neutral and detailed, with very precise imaging and sharp transient attack, but the soundstage is narrow. Dayton Reference series sounds warmer than the Seas Excels though with slightly less midrange clarity (still far better than most commercial designs though). Still, metal sounds too upfront for my tastes. Polypropelene is too laid back, paper is just right.
The 6.5" high efficiency paper midranges (made by various manufacterers like PHL, Audax, B&C, etc.) sound great also, but can't cross low. Or high.
Morel sucks. Never heard anything I liked made by them. Eton isn't that great either, though I use to use them in my car. They use primitive motor designs.
Regarding tweeters, small ribbons sound great but need high crossover points, typically around 3kHz. They sound very airy and transparent, with a nice top end sparkle. The Hiquphon and Peerless HDS dome tweeters also have this quality but the vast majority of dome tweeters sound dull. The mass of the tweeter dome/ribbon element plays a huge role in its sound yet does not seem to show up in distortion measurements.
For midbass, stiff cones rule. The Dayton Reference RS225 is the best that I've heard. I prefer it over the much more expensive Seas Excel and Scanspeak versions. The RS225 is warm, spacious, lush, detailed, high output, and cheap.
Exactly the kind of inputs that I was looking for.
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