Bratislav said:
That's for a pair. With the BMS and crossover, the price is 2279€. You can also get the BD15 bass driver from the Swing.
Orphean DIY
Frode
Frode said:
Oops, sorry. I just glanced '1' in the tick box. Didn't realise it was for a pair. So 2K+ Oz denaros ... getting cheaper ! I still think 700e for a pair of crossovers is a bit steep.
1k euros for BMS 4592 - well, considering they are 'modified' (and that can really mean anything in the world of audio) , let's say it is not as outrageous as it can get.
In fact I have to say 'hat off' to Bert for his positive attitude towards DIY. Not my cup of tea, but respect nevertheless.
"Citius, Altius, Fortius", or in DIY variant "cheaper, better, a lot more work for free 
"
Can you be called "tight arsed" if you make a 100K speaker for 50K ? I guess that's matter of perspective.
If you actually look how much Shin has spent in drivers alone in his last two DIY creations, he'd be the last person allowed to claim that attribute !
" Can you be called "tight arsed" if you make a 100K speaker for 50K ? I guess that's matter of perspective.
If you actually look how much Shin has spent in drivers alone in his last two DIY creations, he'd be the last person allowed to claim that attribute !
Bratislav said:If you actually look how much Shin has spent in drivers alone in his last two DIY creations, he'd be the last person allowed to claim that attribute !
Its all relative though. Spend say 7k on DIY vs. 7k on commercial or 33k DIY vs. 33k commercial. Doesn't really matter, I'd build my own every time so I consider myself an extravagant tight ****. Somewhere along all our lists is to save money because we refuse to buy into the high markup on commercial.
angeloitacare said:
and money, angelo. knowledge, time & money. out of that i'm lacking 3 elements to be able to make a swing beater for ANY money, let alone 33k.
gedlee said:
would you care to share with us what was the best speaker you've heard or a few of them.
it would really help a lot to understand your standpoint.
anubisgrau said:
This is a loaded question, and it makes no sense. Speakers, like cars, are all about compromises. And compromises are subjective; what is the best car ? Veyron or Koenigsegg won't take you very far along the Canning Stock route for example.
I haven't heard Swings, but have heard enough horn loaded speakers to decide I don't like them. That includes Avangarde Duos and Trios and Jean Hiraga's own creation at La Maison de l’Audiophile. Yes, they do a lot things right, but what they do wrong bothers me enough to look elsewhere.
PS I haven't heard Earl's Summas either, but science in them (Dr Geddes has earned his PhD in acoustics and worked all his life in audio related areas) makes me curios enough to try the concept. Shame B&C drivers prices in Oz are in line with BD
Bratislav said:
Comments like this always bother me because of the implication that in the end its all subjective and I don't believe that is the case. When there are lots of compromises made, i.e. its a poor design, then there can be a wide range of opinions on how bad it is. But as a design converges on less and less compromises the subjective aspects of the compromises that remain become less and less important. Its no coincidence that virtually everyone who comes here finds the system to be the best or among the best that they have heard. Thats because there aren't many compromises and there isn't much room for a subjective opinion. Things just "sound right" as one listener said and that seems to be a unanimous opinion.
On another but relevant note, I found this quote today. I think you'll like it:
"Ordinary people who listen to music on the radio all day long do not know that it is all a lie. It is all noise, the noise of money. I pity people who have grown up never having heard honest music." - Márta Sebestyén
"Ordinary people who listen to music on the radio all day long do not know that it is all a lie. It is all noise, the noise of money. I pity people who have grown up never having heard honest music." - Márta Sebestyén
Well, speakers are subjective item, like it or not. And that includes how they fit in the environment (acoustically and aesthetically) as well as how they sound. We like or don't like things often for no apparent reason.
And if I'm not mistaken, there were some people that didn't like Summas. Which is no surprise really - opinions and preferences are strong and often biased. But they are part of what we are. Sometimes I don't like the performance of Melbourne Symphony, most times I like it a lot. Same musicians, same conductor. Who had a bad day ? Orchestra, conductor or perhaps myself ? Hard to say after a few months. But memory stays.
And if I'm not mistaken, there were some people that didn't like Summas. Which is no surprise really - opinions and preferences are strong and often biased. But they are part of what we are. Sometimes I don't like the performance of Melbourne Symphony, most times I like it a lot. Same musicians, same conductor. Who had a bad day ? Orchestra, conductor or perhaps myself ? Hard to say after a few months. But memory stays.
DIY vs PRO
From Ants first reply that anyone can build an equvilent to a Swing MKII...to all comments that all you/we/me 'DIY' can make gainclones for a Pound or a couple USD
This is IMO pretty ignorant BS.
If we address the Swings first friends:
1) How many moulds trials and errors you think you have to make to find the best flare for horns for this and that driver?
2) What do you think Duelund Coherent Audio caps costs in it's first grade?
3) What do you think a CNC program costs? Machine tooling etc?
4) What do you think the exotic internal wireing costs?
5) What do you think 4 years of development costs?
6) What do you think the veneer work and the paint work on the horns costs
7) What do you think all nessecary tools to develop a speaker like the Swings cost?
8) What do you think that BD-Design have invested in criss-crossing boarders for morover 4 years to test something out.?
9) How much do you think it costs to have a OEM bass driver with 5 times lesser tollerances costs?
10) What do you think it cost to throw 40 years of experience in to such a design to get the best out of it?
11) What do you think the cartes for the spekers cost to make, so they arrive in one pcs.
12) Say what if you don't know how to copy them, and simply *you don't*. You can't...I told you.
13) What does it cost to throw and amp inside the Swings and make that work well
14) And so on and so on....
And if you think you can copy and paste these speakers into your living room with that sound, technology and finish just like that....you are more ignorant than I ever would have thought. Who think he can do that for less than 33K? Ha.. And 33K is not what BD-Design can stuff in the pocket, but 23K EURO.
If you start to calculate on this and BD-Design can expect to sell say 50 pairs world-wide over 5 years. Retail muk-ups, transport, customs handeling and so forth...
Is it the unacceptable to a DIY that it takes 5 years to payback the developing time of 4 years, pay for all the variable costs and spent your time?
33K is that money for all this. IMHO no. It is extremely fair. And far away from pricing things like some pro's does. I think you know who I think about.
Some DIY thinks they can make everything 10 times better for 10 times lesser price...free me from this kind of BS.
So now to the gain-clone the CrazyA amp.:
1) What do you know what's inside there? Beside a chip? It's a radical different approach to use a chip. And how do you beside know what chip is in use. A standard of shelf chip of a sorted and selected one? What does it cost to find one out of 100 that is right on spot.
2) What does this cabinet cost you think?
3) Why does this GainClone kick *** compared to the other brands based on a chip.
4) The developing hours. No it's not so ordinary as you think.
5) For how low hourly payment are you willing to assemble it, crate it etc?
Beside the fix costs and a few variables, what do you think it costs to run a company? To sell the products. To spent day and night doing your business?
And some call this stealing?
I'm not getting nuts if there is something I cannot afford. Neither should any of you honestly. And to start to spit because one cannot afford is just so human = nonsence.
Did Queen Elisabeth pay for Buckingham Palace. No she's ******* getting millions just to sleep there. The only thing here she has to DIY beside shitting.
So Gentlemen, calm down. DIY is a hobby. A Pro is a DIY'er who dedicated himself his life to DIY to death, so all non-DIY have chance to hear replayed music.
How many of you made your own television, refridgiator, cut your own hair an do your teeth you self....?
But if we start at the beginning of this thread, it was about a question if somebody have news from the RMAF about this and that?
I could ask what are a DIY'er going on RMAF if we already now how to make everything better, cheaper, more sophisticated etc etc...
Is it to get a big laugh how those pro's a stupid and claim prices for their work or are we there to get inspiration from those who spent their whole life making their products.
I think among the above comments there was a few too religious extremist coments, that actually should never have been said. As they don't do any good in this world to anyone and nothing can neither be learned from that. Waist of words.....computer time and electricity.
Sorry guys.
Gerner
From Ants first reply that anyone can build an equvilent to a Swing MKII...to all comments that all you/we/me 'DIY' can make gainclones for a Pound or a couple USD
This is IMO pretty ignorant BS.
If we address the Swings first friends:
1) How many moulds trials and errors you think you have to make to find the best flare for horns for this and that driver?
2) What do you think Duelund Coherent Audio caps costs in it's first grade?
3) What do you think a CNC program costs? Machine tooling etc?
4) What do you think the exotic internal wireing costs?
5) What do you think 4 years of development costs?
6) What do you think the veneer work and the paint work on the horns costs
7) What do you think all nessecary tools to develop a speaker like the Swings cost?
8) What do you think that BD-Design have invested in criss-crossing boarders for morover 4 years to test something out.?
9) How much do you think it costs to have a OEM bass driver with 5 times lesser tollerances costs?
10) What do you think it cost to throw 40 years of experience in to such a design to get the best out of it?
11) What do you think the cartes for the spekers cost to make, so they arrive in one pcs.
12) Say what if you don't know how to copy them, and simply *you don't*. You can't...I told you.
13) What does it cost to throw and amp inside the Swings and make that work well
14) And so on and so on....
And if you think you can copy and paste these speakers into your living room with that sound, technology and finish just like that....you are more ignorant than I ever would have thought. Who think he can do that for less than 33K? Ha.. And 33K is not what BD-Design can stuff in the pocket, but 23K EURO.
If you start to calculate on this and BD-Design can expect to sell say 50 pairs world-wide over 5 years. Retail muk-ups, transport, customs handeling and so forth...
Is it the unacceptable to a DIY that it takes 5 years to payback the developing time of 4 years, pay for all the variable costs and spent your time?
33K is that money for all this. IMHO no. It is extremely fair. And far away from pricing things like some pro's does. I think you know who I think about.
Some DIY thinks they can make everything 10 times better for 10 times lesser price...free me from this kind of BS.
So now to the gain-clone the CrazyA amp.:
1) What do you know what's inside there? Beside a chip? It's a radical different approach to use a chip. And how do you beside know what chip is in use. A standard of shelf chip of a sorted and selected one? What does it cost to find one out of 100 that is right on spot.
2) What does this cabinet cost you think?
3) Why does this GainClone kick *** compared to the other brands based on a chip.
4) The developing hours. No it's not so ordinary as you think.
5) For how low hourly payment are you willing to assemble it, crate it etc?
Beside the fix costs and a few variables, what do you think it costs to run a company? To sell the products. To spent day and night doing your business?
And some call this stealing?
I'm not getting nuts if there is something I cannot afford. Neither should any of you honestly. And to start to spit because one cannot afford is just so human = nonsence.
Did Queen Elisabeth pay for Buckingham Palace. No she's ******* getting millions just to sleep there. The only thing here she has to DIY beside shitting.
So Gentlemen, calm down. DIY is a hobby. A Pro is a DIY'er who dedicated himself his life to DIY to death, so all non-DIY have chance to hear replayed music.
How many of you made your own television, refridgiator, cut your own hair an do your teeth you self....?
But if we start at the beginning of this thread, it was about a question if somebody have news from the RMAF about this and that?
I could ask what are a DIY'er going on RMAF if we already now how to make everything better, cheaper, more sophisticated etc etc...
Is it to get a big laugh how those pro's a stupid and claim prices for their work or are we there to get inspiration from those who spent their whole life making their products.
I think among the above comments there was a few too religious extremist coments, that actually should never have been said. As they don't do any good in this world to anyone and nothing can neither be learned from that. Waist of words.....computer time and electricity.
Sorry guys.
Gerner
Gerner
I think that you and everyone here should take your advice and calm down . Take a breath and chill.
It's hard to believe that there is unanimity on any one speaker as best, no matter what their proponents say. How big a sample have they tested? "Everyone says so" isn't very scientific. It isn't necessarily more moral to spend less on speakers when even that is much more than many would consider sane. High end speakers are quite expensive due to many factors- especially that few people buy them, and yes , there is a lot of research and craftmenship involved, as well some profit. It is well known that few manufacturers who specialize in the high end only, make large amounts of money.
I have heard very good DIY components and quite bad ones, Some DIYers are indeed fooling themselves, others are capable, but there is no doubt that it takes time to get things right. and some luck often.
I think that you and everyone here should take your advice and calm down . Take a breath and chill.
It's hard to believe that there is unanimity on any one speaker as best, no matter what their proponents say. How big a sample have they tested? "Everyone says so" isn't very scientific. It isn't necessarily more moral to spend less on speakers when even that is much more than many would consider sane. High end speakers are quite expensive due to many factors- especially that few people buy them, and yes , there is a lot of research and craftmenship involved, as well some profit. It is well known that few manufacturers who specialize in the high end only, make large amounts of money.
I have heard very good DIY components and quite bad ones, Some DIYers are indeed fooling themselves, others are capable, but there is no doubt that it takes time to get things right. and some luck often.
Variac said:
A very good suggestion Variac....
Let's all chill down. It is afterall just audio we are dealing with, not politics.
I'm cool now.
Even we have 25 degrees Celcious and sunshine.
It's time to walk the dog and it's also time for me to drop out of the thread here...not because it was not interesting enough, but my pro job is being a sales conductor for an industrial company who are doing everything by them selves. I travel quite a lot and I am not a good and steady forumer as I am abcent very much.
Cheers pals.
Gerner
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