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Old 29th October 2008, 10:15 AM   #41
Frode is offline Frode  Norway
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Looking at the curves for the 4592ND, it's hard to understand that 115dB/W/m is possible: http://bmspro.com/fileadmin/bms-data...2nd_t.data.pdf

Frode
 
Old 29th October 2008, 10:23 AM   #42
gerner is offline gerner  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally posted by angeloitacare


Bratislav

the midrange/tweeter channel of the Swing uses a BMS4592nd compression driver, which is rated 115db/wm. It's in fact highly efficient. The bass is activ, and should be around 102 db efficient, with the horn in front. ( the BD - design Bass has around 100db/wm, as far as i remember )Gerner, Gordan, i incourage you, to try out a separate horn tweeter, and use the existant midrange horn only for what it should be used : the midrange channel. Than you will have a significant improvement : better dispersion, and the sound opens up. thats what Robert might have observed, and describes as obscured. Someone else , i don't know if it was at this forum, described the Swings as listening to big headphones, because of directionality. Linkwitz said : if you have a beaming treble, you can sit even at the sweetspot, and it still won't sound well. You need the indirect reflected waves to create a soundstage.

Angelo

Hi again Angelo

It is any drivers behaviour to start beaming if you do not place your ears or mike within the nearfield dispersion pattern.
And we do not when we are talking horns.

Non beaming you can only retreive from very big pannel speakers and being within nearfield listening distance.

Also a ringradiator compresion drivers starts to beam at higher freqencies. All drivers does that. Natural law by physics.
A dome as well. Just look at the curves very often show on axis measurement, -30 degrees off axis and -60 degrees off axis. There you see the beaming phenomenon.

I don't know anything about Mr. Linkwitz opinions that beaming speakers are sounding bad.
As far as I know he uses open baffel bass/midrange and a beaming dome or whatelse not open baffle in the treble.
True open baffle is only acheived by full frequency range panel speakers.

I would actually not combine open baffle with closed chamber combies. The dispersion of such combinations must lead to an awkward dispersion pattern. At least not using closed chamber drivers at the higher range. Then maybe better in the deep bass, such as closed subs or deviations thereof.

Cheers
Gerner
 
Old 29th October 2008, 10:32 AM   #43
gerner is offline gerner  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally posted by Frode
Looking at the curves for the 4592ND, it's hard to understand that 115dB/W/m is possible: http://bmspro.com/fileadmin/bms-data...2nd_t.data.pdf

Frode
Hej Frode

But those factory curves are measured in a square horn and not in the Orphean horn used in the Swings which is circular and that horn is more efficient than square horns.

I can assure you the 115db/w/m is correct. BD-Design is not lying and I can verify it hear as well with my meassuring equipment.

Additonally I have to add that those BMS freq. curves has nothing to do with how the driver is working in the Orphean horns. There are filtering differences, thanks God, and the driver has been modified inside its magnetmotor.

Those are the true facts.

Gerner


 
Old 29th October 2008, 11:00 AM   #44
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the bms 2230 horn is 50 x 55 degrees...........
still not 115db with the neo bms coax............
I prefer 40 x 90 with no breaks, or better yet 100 x 100
I bet there are reflections at every break in angle...........

http://www.soundworks-pa-shop.de/Spe...0f41e214c4e473

here I see the mid driver around 112db and the tweet in breakup mode at 15khz (113db, about 1-2db louder than most curve).

http://www.bd-design.nl/contents/en-us/4592ND.pdf
 
Old 29th October 2008, 11:53 AM   #45
gerner is offline gerner  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally posted by norman bates
the bms 2230 horn is 50 x 55 degrees...........
still not 115db with the neo bms coax............
I prefer 40 x 90 with no breaks, or better yet 100 x 100
I bet there are reflections at every break in angle...........

http://www.soundworks-pa-shop.de/Spe...0f41e214c4e473

here I see the mid driver around 112db and the tweet in breakup mode at 15khz (113db, about 1-2db louder than most curve).

http://www.bd-design.nl/contents/en-us/4592ND.pdf

Ciao

Still no matter the horns you mention are quare-mouthed or rectangular-mouthed. They cannot be as efficient as a circular horn, as a circular horn has no corners where sound can die or cancel.

I will/can not publish my measurements as only the manufacturor has those rights. In this case.

I don't know if Bert Doppenberg from BD-DESIGN will do that so everybody can see. It is up to him to decide.

I can just confirm by words that he is not lying about the effiency of that driver in his horn.

Cheers
Gerner
 
Old 29th October 2008, 01:13 PM   #46
gerner is offline gerner  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally posted by gerner



Ciao

Still no matter the horns you mention are quare-mouthed or rectangular-mouthed. They cannot be as efficient as a circular horn, as a circular horn has no corners where sound can die or cancel.

I will/can not publish my measurements as only the manufacturor has those rights. In this case.

I don't know if Bert Doppenberg from BD-DESIGN will do that so everybody can see. It is up to him to decide.

I can just confirm by words that he is not lying about the effiency of that driver in his horn.

Cheers
Gerner
But if The Absolute Sound will once test the Swings and likely they will, or any other magazine showing curves. It will be visible there.

Gerner
 
Old 29th October 2008, 01:15 PM   #47
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by gerner
It's 100db/w/m. Not 2,83 voltage sensitivity, but watt sensitivity.
This is what I love about sensitivity in dB/Watt/M - it can mean about anything that we want it to mean. dB/Volt/M would, of course, be completely determined and unambiguous - but Hey! who wants that!?
 
Old 29th October 2008, 01:25 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by gerner

There are filtering differences, thanks God, and the driver has been modified inside its magnetmotor.
Gerner
gerner,

What was bad about the BMS sound originaly that was changed?
Maybe the "brown sound" is being worked on?
 
Old 29th October 2008, 01:30 PM   #49
gerner is offline gerner  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee


This is what I love about sensitivity in dB/Watt/M - it can mean about anything that we want it to mean. dB/Volt/M would, of course, be completely determined and unambiguous - but Hey! who wants that!?

Yes yes Gedlee

If voltage sensitivity is used as an expression of SPL moving in and out at one meter distance or it's wattage sensitivity where the amp decides how many amperes it can spit out in a given load.

Volt x Ampere = Watt. It has been so for quite some time now hehe

The Swings show an AC impedance resitance load of 6-9 Ohm. Smoothly and without sudden peaks or dips. Nice load for most amps.

Gerner
 
Old 29th October 2008, 01:52 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee


This is what I love about sensitivity in dB/Watt/M - it can mean about anything that we want it to mean. dB/Volt/M would, of course, be completely determined and unambiguous - but Hey! who wants that!?


I don't see that either is any more ambiguous than the other. dB/W/M is based (or supposed to be based) on the power dissipated by the resistance of the VC. Namely,

P = V^2/Re

Reputable driver manufactures seem to follow this. So there is a one to one correlation.

V = sqrt(P x Re).

If you want to go to dB/2.83v/M then just add

20 Log( 2.83/V) to the dB/W/M value.

Example: if Re = 16 then for 1 watt V = 4 and referenced to 2.83v the sensitivity goes down by 20 Log (2.83/4) = -3dB.

What is ambiguous is specifying on axis sensitivity without the directivity index.


What I do like is statements like:

Quote:
The missing 15db to match the tophorn efficiency is gained through the build in amp.

If you set the attenuator for the bass amp according to this, the speaker is measuring flat from buttom to top when you connect your main amp driving the Swings. Hence 115db/w/m.
I guess it's ok to bury that extra 15dB of power in the speaker and claim a bloated sensitivity. It's sort of like putting a 300 HP V8 in the trunk of my Miata and claiming Iím running 12 sec ľ miles with a car that has only a 150 HP 4 cylinder engine.
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