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Old 28th October 2008, 11:40 PM   #31
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Angelo,

note I have not talked about mid/highrange, but specifically about 24Hz claim. To do even 100dB/1W at 24Hz requires some magic and absolutely HUGE drivers and enclosures. 115dB/1W, well .... let's say a few laws of physics would be severely bent.
BTW, that puny horn doesn't even register at 24Hz (wave is over 14 meters long at that frequency!).
 
Old 28th October 2008, 11:51 PM   #32
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hi Bratislav

yes, that claim cannot be true. Might Bert correct that.....

thats the Frequency response of the BD-woofer measured with the driver mounted in a 1200 x 1200mm open panel standing on the floor.

Click the image to open in full size.
 
Old 29th October 2008, 12:21 AM   #33
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That's more like it ....
Still impressive I have to say, I see no reason to get into silly SPL claims.
Even the largest Meyer sound sub (optimized for cardioid response, so more efficient 'forward') is spec'd for 'only' 30Hz -4dB (at 140dB max using an inbuilt 3.5kW amplifier - so it barely clears 100 dB/W at 30Hz). And it uses FOUR high efficiency drivers (2 ea @ 18" and another two 15", all with Neo magnets). In a coffin sized enclosure. If you wanted to reach 115dB/W (and this is still at 'only' 30Hz) you'd need to stack a couple of dozens of these. Not much space would left for listeners in that particular room, I'd say
 
Old 29th October 2008, 02:15 AM   #34
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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115dB/W is of course more than 100% efficient.
Into 4 pi space, that is.....

Even into 2 pi, it's more than 100%. So to do it, you have to restrict the angle, a lot. I've heard big horns that could do 115dB/W - but not at 35Hz!
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Old 29th October 2008, 03:29 AM   #35
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Meyer's cheat a bit by channeling the energy forward, by shaping the polar response into quasi cardioid via clever delay techniques. If you wanted to shape the angle using horn loading at 24Hz, I'd say not many houses would be big enough to accommodate such speaker !
 
Old 29th October 2008, 07:46 AM   #36
gerner is offline gerner  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally posted by gerner

I will'expliain my sefl tomorrow

It's beadtime here.

Gerner
Dear Robert

You are explaining yourself very well here and I see the context clear.
If you observations (I don't know who said *brownish* a where on the WWW it was said) Anu just mentioned somebody said brownish....??

I cannot of course be aginst anything of what you say here, it's so obvious.

What I addressed was I do not perceive the Swings I have, having any particular brownishness or coloration more than any other systems have their signatures.. in colours or any other suffixes we use to describe sound.

If you and your wife were browsing the RMAF with a reference CD you know well how should sound and you found the Swings brownish, well then yes...they are brownish under those circumstances.
Then you must have heard that CD colourless elsewhere than on the Swings.

I connot exactly define them as such, but many maybe could ? That's why I gave a few examples of what could cause such a perception. But it seems I didn't hit the target.
But that if it were you Robert saying *brownish* I beleive you as I know you spent some time with the Swings there.

Peace be with it. All playback systems in my believes have some sort of signature and speakers also, as they are resonators.

I don't think we disagree on this topic. And Anu can of course add what he think about it, as you actually adressed him and not me. Sorry for my intruding Robert.....but good reflections and observations.

Gerner


 
Old 29th October 2008, 08:04 AM   #37
gerner is offline gerner  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally posted by angeloitacare


Bratislav

the midrange/tweeter channel of the Swing uses a BMS4592nd compression driver, which is rated 115db/wm. It's in fact highly efficient. The bass is activ, and should be around 102 db efficient, with the horn in front. ( the BD - design Bass has around 100db/wm, as far as i remember )Gerner, Gordan, i incourage you, to try out a separate horn tweeter, and use the existant midrange horn only for what it should be used : the midrange channel. Than you will have a significant improvement : better dispersion, and the sound opens up. thats what Robert might have observed, and describes as obscured. Someone else , i don't know if it was at this forum, described the Swings as listening to big headphones, because of directionality. Linkwitz said : if you have a beaming treble, you can sit even at the sweetspot, and it still won't sound well. You need the indirect reflected waves to create a soundstage.

Angelo
Dear Angelo

Nah...I don't think I would have my Swings modified that way.
First of all I love the pointsource 200-22 Khz radiation.
For me it's appreciated sound is dispersed from a needle head. Just as a mike *hears* its surroundings. But reversed of course.

Second finding a stand alone treble that shows 115 db/w/m is hard. Then of course I could dampen the midrange horn, but not my cup of tea to introduce more components into the filter. The bass system is easy to adjust to any efficiency as a pot-meter takes care of that thorugh the build in amp. in the foot.

It is a misunderstanding that the big short horn in front of the bass is there to amplify. It just adds a little jump on the freq. curve and the jump is removed in the internal filter system to flatness again
It is there to homogenise speed and signature at the x-over freq. to match the top horns personality. Resulting in a better merge between so different drivers. Nothing else.

Gerner
 
Old 29th October 2008, 08:13 AM   #38
gerner is offline gerner  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally posted by angeloitacare
hi Bratislav

yes, that claim cannot be true. Might Bert correct that.....

thats the Frequency response of the BD-woofer measured with the driver mounted in a 1200 x 1200mm open panel standing on the floor.

Click the image to open in full size.
But guys...

This plot shows the frequency curve in an infinite wall anoich chamber response sensitvity for the bass driver. Or as you claim..1,2 x 1,2 meters open baffle. I don't think that is true if you calculate a little on that.
If you use an extra internal amp in the Swings to crank that up to 115 db/w/m to match the efficiency of the top horn, it is logic the the whole speaker shows 115db/w/m. in connection with any amp being able to spit out 1 watt or what ever watt. It's unrelated.

Try to remember that the internal built in amp in the Swings are there to compensate for the misssing efficiency.

My Clio measurment system veryfies the efficiency claimed. Period.

If I turn off the bass by it's built in potmeter (attenuator) it is only the top horn showing that efficiency. The bass tells you nothing. But now, crank it up with the internal amp and the pot and BINGO you have the rated efficiency.

The Swings is a semi active speaker. It should clear out the misunderstandings here.

Gerner


 
Old 29th October 2008, 09:28 AM   #39
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OK thanks for the clarification.

Clearly the sensitivity is not 115db/2.83V/1m then!
 
Old 29th October 2008, 09:54 AM   #40
gerner is offline gerner  Denmark
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Originally posted by tktran303
OK thanks for the clarification.

Clearly the sensitivity is not 115db/2.83V/1m then!

For the stand alone bass driver no. It's 100db/w/m. Not 2,83 voltage sensitivity, but watt sensitivity. It's furthermore a 16 Ohm driver with a very customised magnet motor and underhung voice coil. The TS parameters are shown at BD-Designs home page.

The missing 15db to match the tophorn efficiency is gained through the build in amp.

If you set the attenuator for the bass amp according to this, the speaker is measuring flat from buttom to top when you connect your main amp driving the Swings. Hence 115db/w/m.

Gerner
 

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