tktran303 said:Wow.
That is really magic carpet.
Looking at it, I can hear music.
As well as all kinds of noises, people talking to/about me...
PS. I think there is an option allow the size to be 1MB, which allows you to go above 1Kx1K pixel limit...
Hey...tktran
The magic is this homepage accepts everything and size when it's taken from an URL. And such a one I have. Then no matter pixels
Here is a pic with lesser than 1000 pixels. And only 110 KB before upload.
But the problem is the magic carpet change when you do so
Ha.. this previous carpet is a x-tra magic carpet that show the first floor reflection of the lower horn and it's first harmonics..
Very practical and useful...
Gerner
anubisgrau,
Back to the original theory as to the "brown tone."
That's what my wife kept saying, was that she wished she could hear the swings with a different source, and a good tube amp.
Maybe we're both "hearing things," but,
She is a well trained musician of many years with quite experienced ears, and is able to discern many things most "audiophiles" don't hear until she mentions them in simple language, as she doesn't know "audiophile speak."
e.g. person demoing talking about "perfect even frequency response," and she says that's nice but why can't you hear the altos just above middle c... Or the excellent micro-detail retrieval, and she ask why you can tell they're singing Latin, but you can't tell what words they're singing on this system...
So I use her to double-check my impressions, and if we come to the same conclusions, without asking first, I'm pretty sure I'm in the ball park.
And yes, I've been a musician, and worked in recording studios since the mid '70s as well, but am just getting into the hi-fi thing.
They were playing with Bert's source and amps, which I would guess would be good enough to show the speakers off?
Or maybe just all wares for sale?
I doubt it...
I don't know, but listened to in the sweet spot, the same recordings, listened to on some other speakers had more, and more vivid tonal colors.
The speakers were as Bert set them up (as was the entire system), opposite from the pictures gerner posted.
The mid/tweeter horn was to the outside to make a wider sound stage, and the bass to the inside to balance the bass in the room.
Otherwise, as I posted before, I really liked this system!
Robert
Back to the original theory as to the "brown tone."
That's what my wife kept saying, was that she wished she could hear the swings with a different source, and a good tube amp.
Maybe we're both "hearing things," but,
She is a well trained musician of many years with quite experienced ears, and is able to discern many things most "audiophiles" don't hear until she mentions them in simple language, as she doesn't know "audiophile speak."
e.g. person demoing talking about "perfect even frequency response," and she says that's nice but why can't you hear the altos just above middle c... Or the excellent micro-detail retrieval, and she ask why you can tell they're singing Latin, but you can't tell what words they're singing on this system...
So I use her to double-check my impressions, and if we come to the same conclusions, without asking first, I'm pretty sure I'm in the ball park.
And yes, I've been a musician, and worked in recording studios since the mid '70s as well, but am just getting into the hi-fi thing.
They were playing with Bert's source and amps, which I would guess would be good enough to show the speakers off?
Or maybe just all wares for sale?
I doubt it...
I don't know, but listened to in the sweet spot, the same recordings, listened to on some other speakers had more, and more vivid tonal colors.
The speakers were as Bert set them up (as was the entire system), opposite from the pictures gerner posted.
The mid/tweeter horn was to the outside to make a wider sound stage, and the bass to the inside to balance the bass in the room.
Otherwise, as I posted before, I really liked this system!
Robert
serenechaos said:
Sorry Robert because I intrude before Anu.
I have been a recording ingeneer too and only want to point this out.
We as recording engineers hears what the mikes hears. Your dear wife, what she hears, placed in the orchestra or assembly:
This very different I can tell you.
And being drummer in bands for 16 years I can just confirm what you wife said.
The mikes and their placements is not the same as being a musician with ears placed in the middle of the orchestra..
Recorded music always starts with the mikes.
Sorrry for this short interruption.
Gerner
gerner,
Being a musician I am not able to hear timbre?
To distinguish paritals?
The ability of a driver to resolve a complex waveform?
Or to hear that one set of speakers sounds "obscured" like it's in a fog, dark around the edges, or that the colors are mixed with brown?
I've sat on stage, in the recording studio, and listened in the audience.
OF COURSE it sounds different from different vantage points!
This is about listening to recordings which of course sound different than listening to live music, from any location.
But does a life time of ear training not have some use?
Or am I maybe just too picky?
I mean, as an extreme example, on one particular, much more expensive system, you could hardly tell the difference between an oboe, a clarenet, and a soprano sax.
On the swings it was obvious which instrument was playing, and instruments had a sense of character.
I'm talking about the same recording.
Played on different systems.
I took a CD to many different rooms, with which I am familiar.
Different systems had different strengths and weaknesses.
That was the main thing I didn't like about the swings.
I went over this earlier in this thread I bellieve...
Robert
Being a musician I am not able to hear timbre?
To distinguish paritals?
The ability of a driver to resolve a complex waveform?
Or to hear that one set of speakers sounds "obscured" like it's in a fog, dark around the edges, or that the colors are mixed with brown?
I've sat on stage, in the recording studio, and listened in the audience.
OF COURSE it sounds different from different vantage points!
This is about listening to recordings which of course sound different than listening to live music, from any location.
But does a life time of ear training not have some use?
Or am I maybe just too picky?
I mean, as an extreme example, on one particular, much more expensive system, you could hardly tell the difference between an oboe, a clarenet, and a soprano sax.
On the swings it was obvious which instrument was playing, and instruments had a sense of character.
I'm talking about the same recording.
Played on different systems.
I took a CD to many different rooms, with which I am familiar.
Different systems had different strengths and weaknesses.
That was the main thing I didn't like about the swings.
I went over this earlier in this thread I bellieve...
Robert
Bratislav
the midrange/tweeter channel of the Swing uses a BMS4592nd compression driver, which is rated 115db/wm. It's in fact highly efficient. The bass is activ, and should be around 102 db efficient, with the horn in front. ( the BD - design Bass has around 100db/wm, as far as i remember )Gerner, Gordan, i incourage you, to try out a separate horn tweeter, and use the existant midrange horn only for what it should be used : the midrange channel. Than you will have a significant improvement : better dispersion, and the sound opens up. thats what Robert might have observed, and describes as obscured. Someone else , i don't know if it was at this forum, described the Swings as listening to big headphones, because of directionality. Linkwitz said : if you have a beaming treble, you can sit even at the sweetspot, and it still won't sound well. You need the indirect reflected waves to create a soundstage.
Angelo
Angelo,
note I have not talked about mid/highrange, but specifically about 24Hz claim. To do even 100dB/1W at 24Hz requires some magic and absolutely HUGE drivers and enclosures. 115dB/1W, well .... let's say a few laws of physics would be severely bent.
BTW, that puny horn doesn't even register at 24Hz (wave is over 14 meters long at that frequency!).
note I have not talked about mid/highrange, but specifically about 24Hz claim. To do even 100dB/1W at 24Hz requires some magic and absolutely HUGE drivers and enclosures. 115dB/1W, well .... let's say a few laws of physics would be severely bent.
BTW, that puny horn doesn't even register at 24Hz (wave is over 14 meters long at that frequency!).
That's more like it ....
Still impressive I have to say, I see no reason to get into silly SPL claims.
Even the largest Meyer sound sub (optimized for cardioid response, so more efficient 'forward') is spec'd for 'only' 30Hz -4dB (at 140dB max using an inbuilt 3.5kW amplifier - so it barely clears 100 dB/W at 30Hz). And it uses FOUR high efficiency drivers (2 ea @ 18" and another two 15", all with Neo magnets). In a coffin sized enclosure. If you wanted to reach 115dB/W (and this is still at 'only' 30Hz) you'd need to stack a couple of dozens of these. Not much space would left for listeners in that particular room, I'd say
Still impressive I have to say, I see no reason to get into silly SPL claims.
Even the largest Meyer sound sub (optimized for cardioid response, so more efficient 'forward') is spec'd for 'only' 30Hz -4dB (at 140dB max using an inbuilt 3.5kW amplifier - so it barely clears 100 dB/W at 30Hz). And it uses FOUR high efficiency drivers (2 ea @ 18" and another two 15", all with Neo magnets). In a coffin sized enclosure. If you wanted to reach 115dB/W (and this is still at 'only' 30Hz) you'd need to stack a couple of dozens of these. Not much space would left for listeners in that particular room, I'd say
gerner said:
Dear Robert
You are explaining yourself very well here and I see the context clear.
If you observations (I don't know who said *brownish* a where on the WWW it was said) Anu just mentioned somebody said brownish....??
I cannot of course be aginst anything of what you say here, it's so obvious.
What I addressed was I do not perceive the Swings I have, having any particular brownishness or coloration more than any other systems have their signatures.. in colours or any other suffixes we use to describe sound.
If you and your wife were browsing the RMAF with a reference CD you know well how should sound and you found the Swings brownish, well then yes...they are brownish under those circumstances.
Then you must have heard that CD colourless elsewhere than on the Swings.
I connot exactly define them as such, but many maybe could ? That's why I gave a few examples of what could cause such a perception. But it seems I didn't hit the target.
But that if it were you Robert saying *brownish* I beleive you as I know you spent some time with the Swings there.
Peace be with it. All playback systems in my believes have some sort of signature and speakers also, as they are resonators.
I don't think we disagree on this topic. And Anu can of course add what he think about it, as you actually adressed him and not me. Sorry for my intruding Robert.....but good reflections and observations.
Gerner
angeloitacare said:
Dear Angelo
Nah...I don't think I would have my Swings modified that way.
First of all I love the pointsource 200-22 Khz radiation.
For me it's appreciated sound is dispersed from a needle head. Just as a mike *hears* its surroundings. But reversed of course.
Second finding a stand alone treble that shows 115 db/w/m is hard. Then of course I could dampen the midrange horn, but not my cup of tea to introduce more components into the filter. The bass system is easy to adjust to any efficiency as a pot-meter takes care of that thorugh the build in amp. in the foot.
It is a misunderstanding that the big short horn in front of the bass is there to amplify. It just adds a little jump on the freq. curve and the jump is removed in the internal filter system to flatness again
It is there to homogenise speed and signature at the x-over freq. to match the top horns personality. Resulting in a better merge between so different drivers. Nothing else.
Gerner
angeloitacare said:hi Bratislav
yes, that claim cannot be true. Might Bert correct that.....
thats the Frequency response of the BD-woofer measured with the driver mounted in a 1200 x 1200mm open panel standing on the floor.
But guys...
This plot shows the frequency curve in an infinite wall anoich chamber response sensitvity for the bass driver. Or as you claim..1,2 x 1,2 meters open baffle. I don't think that is true if you calculate a little on that.
If you use an extra internal amp in the Swings to crank that up to 115 db/w/m to match the efficiency of the top horn, it is logic the the whole speaker shows 115db/w/m. in connection with any amp being able to spit out 1 watt or what ever watt. It's unrelated.
Try to remember that the internal built in amp in the Swings are there to compensate for the misssing efficiency.
My Clio measurment system veryfies the efficiency claimed. Period.
If I turn off the bass by it's built in potmeter (attenuator) it is only the top horn showing that efficiency. The bass tells you nothing. But now, crank it up with the internal amp and the pot and BINGO you have the rated efficiency.
The Swings is a semi active speaker. It should clear out the misunderstandings here.
Gerner
tktran303 said:
For the stand alone bass driver no. It's 100db/w/m. Not 2,83 voltage sensitivity, but watt sensitivity. It's furthermore a 16 Ohm driver with a very customised magnet motor and underhung voice coil. The TS parameters are shown at BD-Designs home page.
The missing 15db to match the tophorn efficiency is gained through the build in amp.
If you set the attenuator for the bass amp according to this, the speaker is measuring flat from buttom to top when you connect your main amp driving the Swings. Hence 115db/w/m.
Gerner
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