Please feel free not to speak for everyone. I would certainly be very interested in this as I was one of the first to embrace the BMS coaxes. However, so far I have seen nothing but a lot of empty words on the subject.anubisgrau said:
I have no interest in the commercial Oris products except in the engineering sense, nor in the catfight surrounding them here, but would like the information about what you posted please. It should be quite easy to provide without endangering the commercial interests - the Pass example of this is long established and obvious.
hello Bert
i am proud about what i have achieved in two years of horn speaker building ; there are not many with the ability to develope, design, and build hornspeakers , the way i do, and to get the results, i do. I have learned a lot during this time. I am well aware about what i don't know, but , as someone else said : we move forward. What i didn't learn up to now, i can learn tomorrow... reading what Gerner has said about the development of the Swings, i don't actually get what makes you feel you beeing that much ahead of me..... I limit myself to give a subjective opinion of your product, as i bought it, tested it, compared it, learned a lot through the experience, and finally know, what i am talking about. A remark i want to make about the price of the Swings. Once i commented what i think about the price through a private email to you. You answered : if you think its too expensive, don't buy it. Of course, i would never pay the amount you ask for it. As Gerner said, we DIY guys would not be able to get such a result like the Swings. Buying the Orpheans, BD-Bass, woofer amp, Oris150 for the bass wave guide, all separately, price wont be more than 5 thousand Euros. There is still a difference of over 13 thousand Euros. What makes a cabinet, even CNC machined , beeing so expensive ? Doing woodwork by myself, i know what the cost is....
I said before, if dealer profit, shipping etc. gets involved, than infact price cannot be less than what you charge. But, as someone else here remembered : as far as i know, you do your sales direct, not distribution chain yet... therfore, don't you think the price of the Swings isn't justified ?
Angelo
Objective measurement data for high efficiency horns (like the Swings, right?) is virtually useless. These horns are normally used with low powered tube amps having a "sound" the owner likes, amps with high output impedance. They'll sound nothing like the tested installation or the next installation in another consumer's system.
One needs a tremendous imagination to turn an impedance graph and a range of amplifier output impedances and rolloffs into a sense of the speaker's sound. With such speakers, this data is only useful for competitive, hit-em-over-the-head purposes.
- Eric
One needs a tremendous imagination to turn an impedance graph and a range of amplifier output impedances and rolloffs into a sense of the speaker's sound. With such speakers, this data is only useful for competitive, hit-em-over-the-head purposes.
- Eric
i apologize to everyone who showed a genuine interest in either swings or a principle behind.
however i'm very doubtful if nelson pass has anything to do with bert doppenberg. let's wait for bert to establish his commercial business in the very same way nelson has done - i'm sure he'll be happy to share some of his ideas with you.
otherwise buy some and do some reverse engineering. i know of no other way.
however i'm very doubtful if nelson pass has anything to do with bert doppenberg. let's wait for bert to establish his commercial business in the very same way nelson has done - i'm sure he'll be happy to share some of his ideas with you.
otherwise buy some and do some reverse engineering. i know of no other way.
ShinOBIWAN said:I'm going to open my diary and make a note; I actually agreed with Earl on something today.
See, its not inconceivable!
At any rate this has gone far enough IMO. If the guy doesn't want to show us data thats fine, there are lots of other manufacturers who don't do it either.
I would just like to make an appeal that we all start to demand objective data on speakers. Lets start here at DIY where we understand these things. If you don't understand them or don't belive in them then so-be-it. But why would anyone not want the rest of us to see it? There are lots and lots of people (not the least of which is Floyd Toole) who live by measurements first and listening only as a confirmation. The measurements DO tell a story about a design and they are meaningfull, but I would be the first to admit that much of what is currently measured and shown is pointless. That does NOT mean that we shouldn't pursue the idea of measurements as a means of determining quality. Only when the user community demand such information will the manufacturers begin to provide it.
panomaniac said:
I was at RMAF. I heard the Swings. They sounded pretty good to me, smooth, large dynamics, without (much) of the typical horn sound. This is just my opinion, and you may or may not agree with me.
Still, I would very much like to see any objective measurements. Showing the directivity on- and off-axis for example gives a good indication of what to expect from this speaker with different types of music, in different rooms and with larger or smaller sweet spots. It is valuable information that should increase our confidence in the thing.
It does in no way give away 'manufacturers secrets', any more than publishing the THD and output power for an amp gives away manufacturers secrets.
I'm with Geddes here: if there is no data, I'm suspicious; if there is, it can only increase confidence (assuming the data is not a total disaster, of course)...
Jan Didden
You've missed the point. Nelson has shared lots of information on amplifier design and helped other DIYers quite freely over the years. WE are not has Pass amplifier market, so has marginal potential loss of sales, and gains enormous respect from many.anubisgrau said:
Bert is selling a very expensive product, and few here would likely purchase it anyway. However if some information was shared that did not compromise his commercial interests too much, then I'm sure many would appreciate it and we could enjoy our dual hobbies of audio and making stuff.
If I was interested enough to buy it, I wouldn't be the least bit interested in reverse engineering it.anubisgrau said:
We shall see what happens.
angeloitacare said:
The underlying question here is: What is the correlation between measured data and the subjective impression? Depends on what the measured data is. If its an axial response alone then not much, non-linear distortion has never been shown to be highly correlated with subjective opinions. But frequency responses at a number of polar angles has been shown to be highly correlated with the subjective impression (see Toole). Its also important to look at the response IN the room - early reflections, etc. Personally I have absolute confidence in being able to tell the sound quality of a speaker given the "right" set of data. Given what is usually shown its pointless.
I believe (and this has not been thoroughly tested) that harshness can be seen in the impulse response as a high degree of later arriving signals -tails in the decay. In other words, while not obvious in the frequency domain, things like harshness can be more readily seen in the time domain.
Brett said:
i think that plenty of the information on the swings is already shared.
you know which drivers are inside, what is the main principle behind the crossover, what kind of bass system is there, how is an inner structure of the cabinet.
you obviously want to know everything to be able to make a copy or to use very fine details that make swing such a unique speaker.
sorry, it doesn´t go like that in a real world.
in order to make a BMS driver sound like it sounds in the swings, you have to understand why it sounds as it sounds in a stock form, to know how to solve that, to have tools and knowledge to perform a succesful modification.
why is it a problem for a clever and knowledgable DIY-er? it´s pretty obvious what´s wrong with an original to everyone who had a driver in his hand and knows a thing or two about compression drivers.
now bert is a bad guy cause he doesn´t want to tell you what to do?
really?
or that he doesn´t care about sharing other technical data with you?
are you a customer?
if not, what´s your problem? the guy appeared on this forum yesterday after you assaulted him with an unpreceeded attacks here - though you had both 1) worse sounding 2) more expensive speakers on RMAF you could have fun with.
you didn't even bother to hear them, but you are expecting all the technical data and graphs so your visionary brain full of paranormal qualities can say if it sounds good or not.
bloody hell!!!
leave the guy alone.
go and make a better speaker if you can.
when you do it, sell it for any money you like.
no one will have right to object.
Anubisgrau,
No one here cares about how to build the Swing design. Its flawed for my requirements and I wouldn't spend time trying to copy something when I can build better suited designs. Also nobody cares about the fix for BMS driver. Most would go buy a decent driver to start with and not something that needs band aids to correct and make work.
What I don't buy into is commercial bull and measurements are way to avoid some of that and see if the claims are real.
To me the Swings are a typical elite end loudspeaker with the usual extravagant claims and sure footed sales man tactics that ask "go listen and see" rather than actually provide useful data. This is a DIY forum not a commercial sales forum. We like to discuss technicalities, if this isn't possible then the design has no place here for me. Its just another grey box with a high price tag and BS claims.
No one here cares about how to build the Swing design. Its flawed for my requirements and I wouldn't spend time trying to copy something when I can build better suited designs. Also nobody cares about the fix for BMS driver. Most would go buy a decent driver to start with and not something that needs band aids to correct and make work.
What I don't buy into is commercial bull and measurements are way to avoid some of that and see if the claims are real.
To me the Swings are a typical elite end loudspeaker with the usual extravagant claims and sure footed sales man tactics that ask "go listen and see" rather than actually provide useful data. This is a DIY forum not a commercial sales forum. We like to discuss technicalities, if this isn't possible then the design has no place here for me. Its just another grey box with a high price tag and BS claims.
ShinOBIWAN said:Anubisgrau,
No one here cares about how to build the Swing design. Its flawed for my requirements and I wouldn't spend time trying to copy something when I can build better suited designs. Also nobody cares about the fix for BMS driver. Most would go buy a decent driver to start with and not something that needs band aids to correct and make work.
What I don't buy into is commercial bull and measurements are way to avoid some of that and see if the claims are real.
To me the Swings are a typical elite end loudspeaker with the usual extravagant claims and sure footed sales man tactics that ask "go listen and see" rather than actually provide useful data. This is a DIY forum not a commercial sales forum. We like to discuss technicalities, if this isn't possible then the design has no place here for me. Its just another grey box with a high price tag and BS claims.
where have you seen any extravangant claims from a manufacturer?
on contrary, bd-design is a completely low key operation, totally silent and invisible on forums. the only one that jumps out of that picture is probably me because i really like the speakers and own them, though bert didn´t earn a single penny on me as i´ve bought them s/h
and gerner, for his own reasons.
bert didn't use this forum to pitch sales like some of those who jumped on the speakers.
the only extravant claim made here was when someone mentioned them as the best sound of RMAF and i can easily believe that.
i´m sure you are not into the swings´design so you don´t mind about the details but there´s quite a few DIY-ers who would love to get from the BMS the sound you would normally pay many times their price....
Brett said:
Hi Brett...
The BMS is a hard driver to get to shine... but it can be done. But Bert has to expose that if he wants. If I do it..as you see.. a war will break out here.
In those Orpheans horns I can easily explain, without the Orphean horns, I need another horn as basics to start from.
These drivers (two way coaxials) are for those who likes point source performance over a wide range. And then you have to deal with it's crazy off shots.
The driver it self out of box is to be carefylly offered a horn that suits it and second insane carefull filtering in order to tune it to laws of phase, decay, *and tonal control at the same time*. Deal with it's peaks and dips. And flaws any driver has. IMO.
For now, if there is something you really *want* to make successfully and make it *scientifically* correct and at the same time see to it also sounds well...oh boy...what a job.
There is no driver wich can challenge you more than this one.
The driver out of box has it's born in possible potentials, but to make it a Superman, that is a task to challenge.
How shall I expose that to be done, when I promissed Bert not to expose it? A promise is a promise. I'll keep it...not to be a God, but just not to break promises. Maybe it comes to that one final day...but it's not my top priorities for the time being as I'm already on a different approach to good sound.
And I would say to anyone here, try to concure it's faulties and make it shine.... if all we DIY are ohh so clever. If Bert/I could do it why can you not?
Try to understand me.
Cheers
Gerner
janneman said:
What is it you want to copy? The Swings and all the work laid into a commercial speaker.?
DIY ..U know...
Copying is not DIY, well except just copying a tube amp exposed. And there is still no way to copy it, even a Chinese can confirm.
Leave Bert a little peace as he did nothing wrong to you, as he is not guilty for all this. And how can anyone claim his speakers exposed.
I underline again I will not expose that design to anyone as a promise is a promise.
So the Swings commercials is on a DIY forum..hmm...maybe a bad choise. *I* made that **** intefering with my first post. As The Swings are noting less than a DIY ....commercialiced. But it i love it.
Gerner
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