Hi,
You are invited to audition John K's open baffle NaO speakers in the next club meeting of the Sydney Audio Club on Sunday the 9th November 2008.
I am asked to demonstrate my DIY HiFi system in the club meeting, including my implementation of the NaO speakers. Note that the NaO is similar to the Linkwitz Orion in its design approach. I have not heard the Orion but my guess is that the NaO should sound similar to the Orion. As we know, both Linkwitz and John K are the leaders in the field of OB speakers.
Yes I am biased, because I built my system, but I'd say in my opinion it compares very well to any HiFi systems I have ever listened to at any price point (and I heard a lot) in terms of overall accuracy, life-like sound presentation and musicality. Last week, I had a special guest, Mr. Gary Stavrou, the conductor of the Balmain Sinfonia, a Sydney based symphony orchestra, visited me at my home. When he heard my system, he said it was "quite good". He did actually help me to adjust my NaO crossover settings besides playing the piano with my kids and dinning with my family.
I would love to meet you forum members who live around Sydney.
The Sydney Audio Club organizes monthly club meetings. They demonstrate HiFi equipments borrowed from some leading HiFi dealers and club members. Monthly meetings are held on the second Sunday each month at the Epping Community Hall, Dence Park, Epping, NSW.
Meetings start a 1pm and end at 5pm. Music starts at 2pm sharp. There are two breaks between 3 sessions. People usually turn up 5-10 minutes before the music starts.
Non members can attend a meeting free of charge.
When I have a moment, I will post more information about my system. I am in a hurry and have to go now. Feel free to ask any questions.
Regards,
Bill
You are invited to audition John K's open baffle NaO speakers in the next club meeting of the Sydney Audio Club on Sunday the 9th November 2008.
I am asked to demonstrate my DIY HiFi system in the club meeting, including my implementation of the NaO speakers. Note that the NaO is similar to the Linkwitz Orion in its design approach. I have not heard the Orion but my guess is that the NaO should sound similar to the Orion. As we know, both Linkwitz and John K are the leaders in the field of OB speakers.
Yes I am biased, because I built my system, but I'd say in my opinion it compares very well to any HiFi systems I have ever listened to at any price point (and I heard a lot) in terms of overall accuracy, life-like sound presentation and musicality. Last week, I had a special guest, Mr. Gary Stavrou, the conductor of the Balmain Sinfonia, a Sydney based symphony orchestra, visited me at my home. When he heard my system, he said it was "quite good". He did actually help me to adjust my NaO crossover settings besides playing the piano with my kids and dinning with my family.
I would love to meet you forum members who live around Sydney.
The Sydney Audio Club organizes monthly club meetings. They demonstrate HiFi equipments borrowed from some leading HiFi dealers and club members. Monthly meetings are held on the second Sunday each month at the Epping Community Hall, Dence Park, Epping, NSW.
Meetings start a 1pm and end at 5pm. Music starts at 2pm sharp. There are two breaks between 3 sessions. People usually turn up 5-10 minutes before the music starts.
Non members can attend a meeting free of charge.
When I have a moment, I will post more information about my system. I am in a hurry and have to go now. Feel free to ask any questions.
Regards,
Bill
"Quite good"? I can stay at home and listen to quite good heh heh..only joshing.
Will check my calendar, but unfortunately I think it may conflict with another little hi fi shindig at North Richmond.
But then again, by the time I get there I'm nearly at yours, will try and see if I can fit in both.
out of curiosity, how does the venue affect things? Spose it can be a bit like a hifi show, can't really take away any real impressions one way or the other?
cheers bill
Will check my calendar, but unfortunately I think it may conflict with another little hi fi shindig at North Richmond.
But then again, by the time I get there I'm nearly at yours, will try and see if I can fit in both.
out of curiosity, how does the venue affect things? Spose it can be a bit like a hifi show, can't really take away any real impressions one way or the other?
cheers bill
Andy G said:I'll be with Terry at North Richmond, not sure I would be able to make to 2 places in one day.
Epping could be considered "on the way home" for me, but not sure of timing, or even if I'll be ok to drive after our other meeting........
so it is that weekend? sat or sun?
Just so's all knows, its a very important meeting heh heh, bit of an investigation into some serious audio questions heh heh, andy's already making excuses!!!
Hi Bill,
LOL. Yes it is quite good, isn't it?
I had a couple of friends, both full time musos, come over one day, and they said "hey it sounds really realistic"
Gee. Well thanks for that validation. I already knew that.
Anyway, these guys are the kind that have a dozen guitars, listen to the notes, focus on the performance not the equipment, and spent countless hours in the studio.
A few years ago I had one of the guys over and he said
"You know there's too much at 800, maybe 850 hertz"
after listening about 2 minutes listening to my ScanSpeak
2-way. I was shocked. That's just far out amazing IMHO.
I can only surmise that all the time monitoring music behind the console has really tuned their ears.
Comments like "those cymbals are the most realistic I've ever heard through speakers, but you'll might find that some recordings will sound a little hot"
Musicians often struggle for the flowery verbiage that audiophiles seem to be so good at.
LOL. Yes it is quite good, isn't it?
I had a couple of friends, both full time musos, come over one day, and they said "hey it sounds really realistic"
Gee. Well thanks for that validation. I already knew that.
Anyway, these guys are the kind that have a dozen guitars, listen to the notes, focus on the performance not the equipment, and spent countless hours in the studio.
A few years ago I had one of the guys over and he said
"You know there's too much at 800, maybe 850 hertz"
after listening about 2 minutes listening to my ScanSpeak
2-way. I was shocked. That's just far out amazing IMHO.
I can only surmise that all the time monitoring music behind the console has really tuned their ears.
Comments like "those cymbals are the most realistic I've ever heard through speakers, but you'll might find that some recordings will sound a little hot"
Musicians often struggle for the flowery verbiage that audiophiles seem to be so good at.
Oh, 200+ viewing without one confirmation!
We audiophiles talk about air, image, depth, etc, sometimes coming from our imaginations. While Gary, the conductor, when I asked if the tweeter resistor should be increased or decreased, the trimpot controlling the woofer roll-off Q should be turned up or down, he would say something like this: "I can't hear the vibro of the strings!", "The violin sounds right but at the lower notes it sounds like a cello". I was glad to hear when I asked if the piano sounded right and had the answer yes. How many systems can reproduce piano sound accurately? the NaO does it reasonably well.
Who should we trust? the audiophiles ears, or a conductor's ears? No wonder the Orion speakers can be described as the "best" by some and "not listenable" by others.
We audiophiles talk about air, image, depth, etc, sometimes coming from our imaginations. While Gary, the conductor, when I asked if the tweeter resistor should be increased or decreased, the trimpot controlling the woofer roll-off Q should be turned up or down, he would say something like this: "I can't hear the vibro of the strings!", "The violin sounds right but at the lower notes it sounds like a cello". I was glad to hear when I asked if the piano sounded right and had the answer yes. How many systems can reproduce piano sound accurately? the NaO does it reasonably well.
Who should we trust? the audiophiles ears, or a conductor's ears? No wonder the Orion speakers can be described as the "best" by some and "not listenable" by others.
Terri and Andy G,
You guys should made it to Epping and tell me if the other gears sound better or not. What have made you to decide to drive all way from Bathurst and Newcastle to North Richmond (up to 2 hours?)? those must be some fancy stuff. I do hope they better the NaO.
Enjoy your time in Richmond and if you do turn up in Epping just say hello and ask for me!
You guys should made it to Epping and tell me if the other gears sound better or not. What have made you to decide to drive all way from Bathurst and Newcastle to North Richmond (up to 2 hours?)? those must be some fancy stuff. I do hope they better the NaO.
Enjoy your time in Richmond and if you do turn up in Epping just say hello and ask for me!
What about others?
I do realise that there are not that many DIY forum members from Sydney who post here regularly. How come most OZ members live in Melbourne? They must like the weather there, i.e. four seasons a day.
Brett is perhaps the only regular forum member who is (temporarily) living in Sydney, the place he hates.
Hi, Brett, I understand that you don't like OB, you don't like HiFi drivers (only your old JBL, high efficiency, PA stuff), you perhpas still don't like solid state amps, etc. But you may be surprised to find how the NaO sounds! come up not for NaO's sake, just for meeting some fellow audio nuts for a chat! Thanks for the offer of the LED mod. I have taken the 12B4A preamp to Joe Rasmussen (Allen Wright's agent in Sydney) and had Allen's supereg added to it. Ironically, after that, I have never listened to the thing as I decided not to use a preamp but a passive volume pot. So, the 12B4A preamp, although sounds very good comparing to the best preamps one can find, will not be in the show.
I do realise that there are not that many DIY forum members from Sydney who post here regularly. How come most OZ members live in Melbourne? They must like the weather there, i.e. four seasons a day.
Brett is perhaps the only regular forum member who is (temporarily) living in Sydney, the place he hates.
Hi, Brett, I understand that you don't like OB, you don't like HiFi drivers (only your old JBL, high efficiency, PA stuff), you perhpas still don't like solid state amps, etc. But you may be surprised to find how the NaO sounds! come up not for NaO's sake, just for meeting some fellow audio nuts for a chat! Thanks for the offer of the LED mod. I have taken the 12B4A preamp to Joe Rasmussen (Allen Wright's agent in Sydney) and had Allen's supereg added to it. Ironically, after that, I have never listened to the thing as I decided not to use a preamp but a passive volume pot. So, the 12B4A preamp, although sounds very good comparing to the best preamps one can find, will not be in the show.
HiFiNutNut said:
Hi Bill,
Sorry I can't make it.
I guess some of this depends on what violin and which piano you are listening to. I am quite please with the reproduction of both, in general. Considering my father was a violinist and my mother a pianist my exposure to such instruments was very long term and intimate. Mozart and Chopin are always among my reference recording, as are the Cream, ZZ Top,... Bob James, Earl Klugh, ....
I don’t know that the lower range of the violin sounds like a cello, but I would admit that I tend prefer a slight warmer lower midrange giving a little more body and weight rather than leaning to a thinner, more strident sound. Of course, the lower midrange balance can be altered by the adjustments on the active woofer/panel crossover. Additionally, distance from the wall behind the speaker will affect the lower midrange response as well, as it will with any dipole.
John,
I was referring to the session when I was doing some micro adjustments on the NaO with Gary the conductor. They were mainly tiny adjustments at a fraction of a dB and would normally not be revealed in normal measurements. I would turn up and down the trimpots on the NaO's circuit board and asked Gary until he said "That is good" after a few of "that is worse" and "that is better".
Although in theory normal human hearing would not distinguish the difference of a dB within an octave or two, this does not apply to people with trained ears.
I have again and again found that a fraction of a dB would change the sound, sometimes to much better or worse. Not just my ears do so, many of my audio friends do.
I can prove this from my measurements that a change of a resistor of 0.1R would only affect less than 0.1dB, yet my friends who sat with me would all consistently report quite obvious differences.
I have been tuning my speakers with 0.11R (sometimes 0.05R) increments / decrements, and winding / unwinding inductors turn by turn in order to obtain the optimal results.
I played a violin when I was at school and performed at high school years. I have not played any music since then. But in front of Gary I would feel my music knowledge is no better than the Kindergarten stuff.
Regards,
Bill
I was referring to the session when I was doing some micro adjustments on the NaO with Gary the conductor. They were mainly tiny adjustments at a fraction of a dB and would normally not be revealed in normal measurements. I would turn up and down the trimpots on the NaO's circuit board and asked Gary until he said "That is good" after a few of "that is worse" and "that is better".
Although in theory normal human hearing would not distinguish the difference of a dB within an octave or two, this does not apply to people with trained ears.
I have again and again found that a fraction of a dB would change the sound, sometimes to much better or worse. Not just my ears do so, many of my audio friends do.
I can prove this from my measurements that a change of a resistor of 0.1R would only affect less than 0.1dB, yet my friends who sat with me would all consistently report quite obvious differences.
I have been tuning my speakers with 0.11R (sometimes 0.05R) increments / decrements, and winding / unwinding inductors turn by turn in order to obtain the optimal results.
I played a violin when I was at school and performed at high school years. I have not played any music since then. But in front of Gary I would feel my music knowledge is no better than the Kindergarten stuff.
Regards,
Bill
By the way, my room is the worst I could imagine: 2.5m H x 5m W x 6 L - basically a square room. That does affect the model region and make the sound inaccurate.
There should be no problem in the Epping Community Hall when we probably have two very large rooms to choose. I guess the demo room will have width about 14 metres and the length about 25 metres. My worry is that the NaO may not have the SPL capacity to fill the room.
There should be no problem in the Epping Community Hall when we probably have two very large rooms to choose. I guess the demo room will have width about 14 metres and the length about 25 metres. My worry is that the NaO may not have the SPL capacity to fill the room.
Here is a reminder that the NaO demo will be on the coming Sunday 9th of November, at 2pm at Dence Park Creative Centre / Community Hall, Stanley St, Epping, NSW.
The meeting will be divided into 3 sessions.
Session 1 will be from 2:00pm sharp to 2:50pm. I will be presenting various types of music with various musical instruments in order for you to hear the different aspects of the speakers. They will probably include drum, organ, piano, string quartet, wind instruments, choral music, opera?, Jazz, folk, world, pop and rock. Most discs will be SACDs (SuperAudio CDs) so you will hear the music on high resolution play-back from original high resolution recordings.
Session 2 will be from 3:10pm to 4:00pm. John McEvoy, the president of the Sydney Audio Club, will be running the show and present various pieces of music from his vast CD collection.
Session 3 will be the BYO session from 4:15pm to 5:00pm. Members can bring in a CD/SACD and play their favorite track.
The meeting will be divided into 3 sessions.
Session 1 will be from 2:00pm sharp to 2:50pm. I will be presenting various types of music with various musical instruments in order for you to hear the different aspects of the speakers. They will probably include drum, organ, piano, string quartet, wind instruments, choral music, opera?, Jazz, folk, world, pop and rock. Most discs will be SACDs (SuperAudio CDs) so you will hear the music on high resolution play-back from original high resolution recordings.
Session 2 will be from 3:10pm to 4:00pm. John McEvoy, the president of the Sydney Audio Club, will be running the show and present various pieces of music from his vast CD collection.
Session 3 will be the BYO session from 4:15pm to 5:00pm. Members can bring in a CD/SACD and play their favorite track.
Here is a description of my system:
Source: Modified Marantz SA11 Super Audio CD player
The Marantz SA11 is Marantz' high end SACD/CD player (just below the latest top model SA7). The recommended retail price is AUD$4,250 but you may get street price around AUD$3,500. This generation of CD/SACD players represents a major advancement from the previous generations. You can forget about the Marantz CD63, Marantz CD7, etc, because the new ones are completely different players and are substantially better. I replaced 40+ parts and removed the Marantz "house sound" (the artificial warmth and big soundstage) to make it more transparent and neutral sounding.
Preamp / NaO ESP / EQ / XO:
There is no preamp but just a passive volume pot. The original NaO active circuit contains 10 opamps. In my implementation of John K's original transfer function I only used 7 opamps, all opa627. The printed circuit board is of my own design and for each opamp on each rail I have individual bypass and ground return. The +/-15V regulator was my "overkill" implementation of the LM317/LM337 regulators, followed by the JLH (John Linsley Hook)'s "ripple eater" / "capacitor multiplier" / shunt regulator.
Power Amplifiers:
I built a few of Randy Slone's flagships MOSFET power amps, the Optimos. These are extremely reliable, stable amps with diminishing distortions measured under strict criteria (not just a 1kHz sine wave). I designed the "overkill" power supplies. They are mono-block constructions. The amplifier driving the main panel is rated at 130W into 8ohm and about 200W into 4ohm. The amplifier driving the subwoofer is rated at 300W into 8ohm.
Loudspeakers: My implementation of the NaO
My NaO was originally built on the earliest free plan before John K made it a commercial kit. I later bought the latest schematic from John so in a way it is based on his latest design. However, it has the Peerless XLS 12" woofer instead of a single or dual XLS 10" woofers. I have not implemented the rear tweeter.
I used the NaO as the learning ground to design passive crossover so the end result is that the passive XO is of my own design. I sent my XO to John for verification and he sent back the comparison of his XO and mine based on his simulations. The overall frequency response looks very close. Mine may have a 0.5dB dip around 3kHz and from 20Hz to 20kHz the deviations would be less than 0.5dB. However, the passive XO has since been further evolved from the version I sent to John.
Basically, John crossed it at 2.3kHz and used a notch filter to notch out the peak at 3kHz (I mentioned it here because John has previously publicly disclosed this information). I now cross it at 2kHz with a steeper roll-off to eliminate the use of the notch filter. There is also a very mild BBC dip and a very mild roll off towards the top octave.
Builders: Please don't ask me for my schematic as I will say No in any case! The NaO is John K's product. John K's NaO sounds very accurate but you can always do your own passive XO to voice the speakers to your own liking.
Regards,
Bill
Source: Modified Marantz SA11 Super Audio CD player
The Marantz SA11 is Marantz' high end SACD/CD player (just below the latest top model SA7). The recommended retail price is AUD$4,250 but you may get street price around AUD$3,500. This generation of CD/SACD players represents a major advancement from the previous generations. You can forget about the Marantz CD63, Marantz CD7, etc, because the new ones are completely different players and are substantially better. I replaced 40+ parts and removed the Marantz "house sound" (the artificial warmth and big soundstage) to make it more transparent and neutral sounding.
Preamp / NaO ESP / EQ / XO:
There is no preamp but just a passive volume pot. The original NaO active circuit contains 10 opamps. In my implementation of John K's original transfer function I only used 7 opamps, all opa627. The printed circuit board is of my own design and for each opamp on each rail I have individual bypass and ground return. The +/-15V regulator was my "overkill" implementation of the LM317/LM337 regulators, followed by the JLH (John Linsley Hook)'s "ripple eater" / "capacitor multiplier" / shunt regulator.
Power Amplifiers:
I built a few of Randy Slone's flagships MOSFET power amps, the Optimos. These are extremely reliable, stable amps with diminishing distortions measured under strict criteria (not just a 1kHz sine wave). I designed the "overkill" power supplies. They are mono-block constructions. The amplifier driving the main panel is rated at 130W into 8ohm and about 200W into 4ohm. The amplifier driving the subwoofer is rated at 300W into 8ohm.
Loudspeakers: My implementation of the NaO
My NaO was originally built on the earliest free plan before John K made it a commercial kit. I later bought the latest schematic from John so in a way it is based on his latest design. However, it has the Peerless XLS 12" woofer instead of a single or dual XLS 10" woofers. I have not implemented the rear tweeter.
I used the NaO as the learning ground to design passive crossover so the end result is that the passive XO is of my own design. I sent my XO to John for verification and he sent back the comparison of his XO and mine based on his simulations. The overall frequency response looks very close. Mine may have a 0.5dB dip around 3kHz and from 20Hz to 20kHz the deviations would be less than 0.5dB. However, the passive XO has since been further evolved from the version I sent to John.
Basically, John crossed it at 2.3kHz and used a notch filter to notch out the peak at 3kHz (I mentioned it here because John has previously publicly disclosed this information). I now cross it at 2kHz with a steeper roll-off to eliminate the use of the notch filter. There is also a very mild BBC dip and a very mild roll off towards the top octave.
Builders: Please don't ask me for my schematic as I will say No in any case! The NaO is John K's product. John K's NaO sounds very accurate but you can always do your own passive XO to voice the speakers to your own liking.
Regards,
Bill
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