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Old 17th October 2008, 02:10 AM   #11
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critofur,

My apologies, I certainly don't like to leave anyone in suspense...work has conspired against my input here. I just negotiated a change in scenery.
Look for some posting this weekend. First will be a MLQW, then on to the tapered pipe which I expect will take me through a learning curve. I might have to consult with Paul K as he certainly has more experience there.
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Old 18th October 2008, 12:08 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ed LaFontaine
critofur,

My apologies, I certainly don't like to leave anyone in suspense...work has conspired against my input here. I just negotiated a change in scenery.
Look for some posting this weekend. First will be a MLQW, then on to the tapered pipe which I expect will take me through a learning curve. I might have to consult with Paul K as he certainly has more experience there.
Oh, I totally understand, no problem. Good to hear you didn't just suddenly die or something terrible like that.

I just got a new job myself, starting Tuesday. I'll finally be able to afford my hobby.

There's nothing like working at a speaker company for being able to afford this hobby, ever since I moved away from NYC in 2003 I sure miss that, in addition to working with the great guys at Ohm (Ohm Acoustics, www.ohmspeakers.com ).

I am itching to build, and listen to, my first pair of TL speakers. I think the Vifa P17 is a good driver for TL.

I also have some of these drivers: http://www.tymphany.com/datasheet/printview.php?id=12 which I'm very excited about.

And, I have about four of the Tang Band W5-704D drivers that I haven't decided what I'll do with ~ though I may build Undefinition's (Paul) "Aethers" with. It would be interesting to compare a pair of P17 TLs with an equivilant pair of TB 704 TLs (using the same tweeters / tweeter crossover).

I most likely will end up using the Peerless Nomex HDS 6.5" drivers in Ohm "Walsh" style speakers.

I should be finished building my router table this weekend, that should help with the method I plan to use to construc the TL speakers.

You a few hours South of Columbus, Ed?
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Old 18th October 2008, 08:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
You a few hours South of Columbus, Ed?
Yes, the other Berea, in KY

I thought you attended DIY Dayton?...I may be confused.

There may be a diy get together in Lexington, KY around the 15th of Nov. I'll keep you informed.
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Old 19th October 2008, 12:58 AM   #14
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I did go to the DIY Dayton, but I was only able to pop in for a couple hours, and they had LUNCH in the middle, darn them! I couldn't resist going back to the tent sale a second time after being a little discouraged at how hard it was to hear the speakers there at the show. I had my friend Devin, my wife, and my son with me, who was getting a little tired and cranky, so I didn't stick around.

I saw you there, and a few other folks I've talked to, but I didn't introduce myself to anyone that time, and I didn't get to listen to most of the speakers that I wanted to hear.

Well, the sad fact was, even if I was there when they played them, only the judges in the front row could really hear them decently, and even if I was in the front row, I'd say they were at about half the volume they'd need to be at to decently audition a speaker...

Well that's all beside the point, which is trying to find the best TL design for a pair of P17 woofers...

I imagine, in a TL design, you can get just enough good sounding bass out of a pair of P17s to make them fun and pleasant to listen to at decent levels. Maybe not front row rock concert levels, but something that'll get your feet tapping.

I'm starting my new job next week, so, I will finally be able to afford this hobby again , but, my work week is Saturday - Thursday, which means I'll have to accrue some vacation time before I make it to any more weekend DIY events

Off topic question: Hmm, what do you think of the "Enable" treatment of speakers? I'm a little skeptical, I'm sure MOST of the "effect" is biased perception of people hearing a difference because they WANT to ~ but, I do know, putting stuff on speaker cones can change their response / sound... I guess until we get somebody with one of those laser vibrometers to scan them, we won't know exactly what (if anything) is going on there.
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Old 19th October 2008, 07:28 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by critofur
Are you sure they won't play loud? One guy's web page where he had a little project w/them and a review said they were great as party speakers in his loft apartment and the bass was booming (in a good way).
Well, I might be influenced by the fact the room they're used in is quite big: 12m long, 5m wide, 4m high (and it's connected by a very wide bay to another 5m/4m/2.5m room). The room has also large areas covered by books and thick carpets. I honnestly don't remember how was the bass in the smaller room where I built those (I tweaked the filling inside the final room).

From the sims, it was quite clear though that my design would be way less efficient than Andy's.
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Old 20th October 2008, 01:25 AM   #16
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Click the image to open in full size.

The simulation above is a first draft, using manufacturer's spec's. Below is a simulation in the same cabinet as that above using the parameters in 00940's attachment in this thread above.

Click the image to open in full size.

Which parameters to use? Which type of response should be intended?

Consider there is no baffle step represented in either sim'.
Consider also there may be a small amount of room gain to increase the apparent bass response.
And one more, in the top sim x-max is breached at ~12 watt input, providing a spl of ~96 dB. The lower sim would allow slightly higher input for the same x-max. I think reason would limit the output to something less than that.

The internal casework dimensions are as follows:

Height: 36"
Width: 7.5"
Depth: 9.0"
The P-17 is located 10.6" down from the top
A 2" dia. x 5" long port is located 29.95" from the top
Moderate stuffing is used, totaling 0.172 pounds

I submit this to you for your consideration. I look forward to your questions and direction.
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Old 20th October 2008, 01:36 AM   #17
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critofur,

I think the EnABL treatment produces a difference in speaker response. It is subtle. There are aspects of the treatment that others report which I can't confirm. Consider what I say in light of the fact that my ears are 55 years old. I've worked a long time in and around construction. My perceptions are likely to be limited by my equipment.

My offering of the EnABL kit is motivated primarily by an interest in making it available to more people for them to evaluate and judge for themselves. I whole-heartedly agree there is more testing to be done.
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Old 23rd October 2008, 02:15 AM   #18
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Cool! I'm headed to California for a week for new job training, when I get back I'll have to get started on building a pair.
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Old 27th November 2008, 03:47 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ed LaFontaine
...The internal casework dimensions are as follows:

Height: 36"
Width: 7.5"
Depth: 9.0"
The P-17 is located 10.6" down from the top
A 2" dia. x 5" long port is located 29.95" from the top
Moderate stuffing is used, totaling 0.172 pounds

I submit this to you for your consideration. I look forward to your questions and direction.
I'm confused why you specified a round port for a transmission line?

How do we determine the length and placement of the internal boards and the size of the TL opening? I thought your spreadsheet would do those things?
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Old 27th November 2008, 04:09 PM   #20
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Hi critofur,

From an appearance standpoint, the Mxss Loaded Transmission Line, mltl, looks identical to a bass reflex enclosure. The "mass loaded" part of the system is the port. This may be round or rectangular like a slot.

In function, the internal dimensions are chosen to avoid resonances which would degrade the fidelity of the signal.

I think you anticipated a straight or tapered tl. That can be done. I chose the mltl for the ease of construction with most if not all of the benefits of other possibilities.

The basis for this is included in Martin King's site:

http://www.quarter-wave.com/
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