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Old 5th October 2008, 07:16 PM   #11
Helmuth is offline Helmuth  Netherlands
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Default Re: very nice design...

Quote:
enclosure is made with what we in Canada call "chip board", only used in the lowest quality anything here
chipboard that is the word. The chip board is laminated with formica. This give high pull strength. It gives there by high resonaces.

These resonances will be eliminated with vibraflex.vibraflex product sheet


Quote:
MDF does not have the stiffness of solid lumber in the longitudinal (with the grain) direction. I would have made the bracing out of solid wood or plywood rather than MDF
To mine opinion you are over estimating the influence of de wood to the quality of the box. On the a dutch forum one told me he read a test where chipboard had less panel resonances than MDF.

But this doesn't bother me because the vibraflex kills any resonance direct. The distances are so short and the panels so hard they almost cant bent so this isn't a issue in this case.



Quote:
Because I am not completely aware of what may be available to you for materials, I am trying not to be typically me and be overly critical.
Stew when you are so sure about the use of massive lumber . Or maybe concrete.
Do you have measurements witch can proof this claim. I would like to see that.

I think the sound is made by the used chassis. When panel resonances are killed properly with hydrocarbon.

With regards Helmuth
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Old 6th October 2008, 02:36 AM   #12
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default Helmuth...

well chip board if used with a good adhesive, can sound very good and on it's own, superior to MDF. Enough work has been done on this by people who I trust and whose experience and comments have been documented enough times. So using chip board in my estimation is superior to MDF. Using additional dampening material is a positive of course.


Sorry I don't have any published reports, but with a little work I probably can come up with something.

You also fail to recognize that regardless what you do, the energy dissipation and storage within MDF is larger than most any other material used for loudspeaker construction.

Now as far as over-estimating the influence of the quality of the wood on the sound, again, based on personal experience, I suggest that BB or similar is superior, but your choice "chip board " is actually a good choice, and using prefinished laminate sheets is also a good choice. Very quick cabinet finishing, and good looking results with the apparent care that you have taken.

I am not a proponent of massively built loudspeaker enclosures, because they suffer many of the same problems that MDF does, namely energy storage and reflection. And yes the chassis of the loudspeaker driver itself can have a profound effect.

Helmuth, I was actually complimenting you, not tying to antagonize you. If I have, I am sorry. And yes, I do have fairly strong convictions regarding materials suitable for loudspeaker enclosures. Now if I had some Aerolam laying around, I'd try that, but alas I do not.

stew
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Old 6th October 2008, 02:47 AM   #13
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Originally posted by tinitus
I reckon you are aware that MTM deappolito asks fore small mids and low xo point...theoretically
Historically i haven't been much enthused with MTMs (i did build my first one in 1975 -- Harbeth 8" + philips tweeter), but since i have recently found a mid-tweeter that lets me XO as low as 350 Hz or so, i'm going to play with them again.

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Old 6th October 2008, 02:48 AM   #14
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Default Re: very nice design...

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Originally posted by Nanook [*]enclosure is made with what we in Canada call "chip board", only used in the lowest quality anything here
Reputedly better than MDF (i haven't used it since the 70s)

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Old 6th October 2008, 03:40 PM   #15
Helmuth is offline Helmuth  Netherlands
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Default Re: Helmuth...

Quote:
Sorry I don't have any published reports, but with a little work I probably can come up with something.
That is a shame Stew. I haven't any about this either. And with out this discussion is useless.


Quote:
Sorry I don't have any published reports, but with a little work I probably can come up with something.
This will make a great new topic every one has a opinion about it but know one seems to know data about resonance behaviour off the used materials.
My college met a man how made his loudspeaker from steel.

Quote:
Using additional dampening material is a positive of course.
The vibraflex works really great.

Quote:
You also fail to recognize that regardless what you do, the energy dissipation and storage within MDF is larger than most any other material used for loudspeaker construction.
Wait till I post my choice. but this will take a while so keep reading
Right and it resonates there by also.

Quote:
Helmuth, I was actually complimenting you
I know, I make short sentences it may appear irritated to the reader. Don't bother.

@Dave

Quote:
Historically i haven't been much enthused with MTMs (i did build my first one in 1975 -- Harbeth 8" + philips tweeter), but since i have recently found a mid-tweeter that lets me XO as low as 350 Hz or so, i'm going to play with them again.
Whait till I post my choise Dave. This will take a while, firts the sub is tested for SPL so keep reading
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Old 6th October 2008, 05:55 PM   #16
Helmuth is offline Helmuth  Netherlands
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Original link (dutch)
wood choise



18mm mdf


18mm chipboard
Click the image to open in full size.


Click the image to open in full size.


meranti plywood 18mm

Click the image to open in full size.

birchplywood 18mm
Click the image to open in full size.

sandwich brichplywood
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 6th October 2008, 08:39 PM   #17
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default Helmuth... testing...

as I do not read anything but English I had to rely on "Babelfish" to translate for me. I have saved the translated page and will make comments once I read it. Thank you for finding the page. I know there is a huge Dutch and German DIY community, and I only wish I could read in German or Dutch to ba able to access much of it.

I need to read the methodology used. It would also make an interesting study for someone in grad school or a technical college to perform , and also an AES study, that I had suggested some time ago.

stew.
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Old 6th October 2008, 09:07 PM   #18
Helmuth is offline Helmuth  Netherlands
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Here are some key words Stew.

meet = measure
ruimte= room
spaanderplaat = chip wood
multiplex = plywood
versteviging = reinforcement
berken = birch
beton = concrete
schium = foam
steenwol = rock wool
massaplaat = mass plate
hardhout = hardwood
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Old 7th October 2008, 05:27 PM   #19
Helmuth is offline Helmuth  Netherlands
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So a got my some damping material to day.

2,5mm= 0,1" thick bitumen product name Vibraflex it is heavy and obstinate against vibration. The yellow paper can be removed to glue it on the wood like a sticker.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

And two pyramid foam sheets to damp standing waves inside the box.
These will be processed to morrow.
Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Regards Helmuth
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Old 9th October 2008, 09:54 PM   #20
Helmuth is offline Helmuth  Netherlands
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To morrow new pictures.
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