Loudspeaker perception

[graaf]

Originally posted by gedlee
There is a serious limit to which two speakers can reproduce the spatiousness of a live performance. Thats because good spaciouness - in the room acoustics sense - requires multiple lateral reflection from the non axial direction. This is precisely what the interaural cross correlation measures. Two speaker in the front cannot achieve this without the room adding in the non-coherent lateral reflections.

what are the "non-coherent lateral reflections"? what is the difference between them and "coherent lateral reflections"?

Originally posted by gedlee
Markus

That early refections help audibility is well know, but not relavent to the music situation.

why? Isn't audibilty about retrieving information? What is the difference between musical information and speech information?

best regards!
graaf

[markus76]

Originally posted by graaf in fact omni speakers have best imaging - lifelike, palpable

Razor sharp localizeable phantom sources are part of good imaging and are part of what stereophony is capable of. Omnidirectional speakers destroy that feature completely.

[Elias]

Hello,

Originally posted by gedlee
There is a tradeoff that one has to make here. Good imaging of the recording requires things that minimize the rooms spaciousness - things like narrow directivity will dramatically lower the spaciousness added by the room, it has too, There is far greater direct to reveberant ratio with narrow directivity. But without a narrow diirectivity a small room has a plethora of early reflections and these will ruin the image, albeit the spaciousness will increase.

Seems to me that the solution is obvious - a very live room with highly directional speakers. Seems to work according to all the reviewers that I've had.

Exactly, this is what I'm thinking also about spaciousness and imaging.

Then how to achieve both, you need to have highly directional speakers over the full range of freqs starting from the bass already. This would rule out omnidirectional monopole boxes alltogether.

- Elias

[graaf]

Originally posted by markus76

Localizable phantom sources are part of good imaging and are part of what stereophony is capable of. Omnidirectional speakers destroy that feature completely.

obviously Your experience with omni speakers is very limited or very unfortunate

best!
graaf

[el`Ol]

Originally posted by graaf


in fact omni speakers have best imaging - lifelike, palpable

I listened to the MBL bending melons and the Duevel 360° horns and the only plus i see is that the speakers are not localizable. My own experiments with reflector cones gave a too wide and too flat image.

[graaf]

Originally posted by gedlee

Good imaging of the recording requires things that minimize the rooms spaciousness

is good imaging a lifelike imaging or something else?


for lifelike imaging spaciousness is essential, there is no trade-off
virtual image must occupy virtual space, must be surrounded by "air", not hanging in black vacuum

[Elias]

Hello,

As I see the picture only tells what will happen when the other source has fixed position at phi = 90 degrees.

At what freq range is this valid?

Can you give the reference, I want to read it all.

- Elias

Originally posted by markus76
Elias, 90° is "best":

[el`Ol]

Originally posted by markus76


Guys, you should come back to facts and avoid nonproven presumptions.
Here are the promised examples:

http://www.mehlau.net/audio/examples/spaciousness/

Best, Markus

I really like the example with the hall. Is it created by convolving? And what was the microphone setup for the impulse response?

[graaf]

Originally posted by el`Ol

I listened to the MBL bending melons and the Duevel 360° horns and the only plus i see is that the speakers are not localizable. My own experiments with reflector cones gave a too wide and too flat image.

well, certainly not ALL omni speakers have best imaging
and I haven't said that

on the other hand no need to look far away for other examples - what about CFS, Carlssons and SLS?
CFS are omni, also Carlssons and SLS are closer to omni than to conventional front firing speakers
they all create many many reflections
yet You have said that:

Both CFS and SLS, same as carlsson, give you a better impression that instruments are "really there" than a conventional setup.

or is imaging about something else than impression that instruments are "really there"?

best!
graaf

[gedlee]

Originally posted by graaf

in fact omni speakers have best imaging - lifelike, palpable

best!
graaf

You can't be serious! This is completely contradictory to what I have found.