I have been looking around for a design that can be used for all channels of a small home theater setup. Whatever I have done to search has been quite ineffective in finding a reasonable solution thus far. Here is my scenario:
I have the capability to build the cabinets and build the crossovers (and would like to do so / enjoy doing so).
I would like to build a set of speakers based on an existing design to use in a 5.1 system (possibly 7.1 if I move to a bigger room eventually). The system would be used for about 70% video / surround, and 30% stereo listening. I place a high value on accurate reproduction. I am under the impression that it would be good to find one design that can be used for all 5 channels, but am open to options and suggestions.
My room is a bizarre shape. It is about 11’ wide, 13’ deep, with a vaulted ceiling. The “TV” is at the short end of the ceiling which is about 8’ tall, and the viewing position is at the high end of the ceiling which is about 15’ tall. The three front speakers can be placed at ear level in a vertical position. I have not yet worked on room treatments, because I would prefer to do empirical tests with the speakers after they are complete.
Any suggestions? What further information could I provide to help?
Thanks,
Chris
I have the capability to build the cabinets and build the crossovers (and would like to do so / enjoy doing so).
I would like to build a set of speakers based on an existing design to use in a 5.1 system (possibly 7.1 if I move to a bigger room eventually). The system would be used for about 70% video / surround, and 30% stereo listening. I place a high value on accurate reproduction. I am under the impression that it would be good to find one design that can be used for all 5 channels, but am open to options and suggestions.
My room is a bizarre shape. It is about 11’ wide, 13’ deep, with a vaulted ceiling. The “TV” is at the short end of the ceiling which is about 8’ tall, and the viewing position is at the high end of the ceiling which is about 15’ tall. The three front speakers can be placed at ear level in a vertical position. I have not yet worked on room treatments, because I would prefer to do empirical tests with the speakers after they are complete.
Any suggestions? What further information could I provide to help?
Thanks,
Chris
Some questions:
1: budget for each of the enclosures, drivers and xover parts?
2: size, shape or any other enclosure issues?
3: Subs - will you be using any? If so details please.
4: If you want a centre, can it be placed at basically the same height as the others or do you have the monitor/TV in the way?
5: Are you looking to develop something yourself, or are you happy to make someone else's design?
If 4: is compromised, go with 4 channels and a 'phantom' centre. I wouldn't bother with rears with a room that small.
Re 5:, the latter is much easier than the former.
1: budget for each of the enclosures, drivers and xover parts?
2: size, shape or any other enclosure issues?
3: Subs - will you be using any? If so details please.
4: If you want a centre, can it be placed at basically the same height as the others or do you have the monitor/TV in the way?
5: Are you looking to develop something yourself, or are you happy to make someone else's design?
If 4: is compromised, go with 4 channels and a 'phantom' centre. I wouldn't bother with rears with a room that small.
Re 5:, the latter is much easier than the former.
Brett hit it on the head. We can't say anything until we know your budget. $500 is a very different system than $5,000.
Also, what is included in this price? Just speakers, or speakers, amp, wire, interconnects, TV, DVD, etc..., etc....
As Brett also implies, do you have any space limitation? It would be bad to build 4 foot towers and discover you've only got 3 feet of space to put them in.
At 11' x 13' foot, you have a relatively small space, so I would say some fair bookshelfs in the front would be best. Perhaps, three identical MTM speakers would work out nicely in front. Then for rears a pair of MT bookshelfs using the same speakers.
That would actually be a pretty sweet system, and again, it encompasses quite a range of speaker prices, and represents many poplular speaker designs.
You problably know, but the letter configuration such as MTM describe the speakers and their set up. MTM means Midbas, Tweeter, Midbass. Similar to this -
http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM.html
WWMT means Woofer, Woofer, Midrange, Tweeter similar to this -
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZDT3.5.html
Hear are a range of speaker kits from Parts Express to give you some ideas -
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage...R=speaker kits&CFID=12445879&CFTOKEN=86191157
As for a Sub, I think Sub are overrated. They certainly do what they do well, and are great for videos, but they are also expensive, and if necessary can wait until later. A low end Sub is about $200, with $300 to $500 being more common, and they can get much more expensive than that.
So, again, your budget and what the budget includes is the starting point.
Steve/bluewizard
Also, what is included in this price? Just speakers, or speakers, amp, wire, interconnects, TV, DVD, etc..., etc....
As Brett also implies, do you have any space limitation? It would be bad to build 4 foot towers and discover you've only got 3 feet of space to put them in.
At 11' x 13' foot, you have a relatively small space, so I would say some fair bookshelfs in the front would be best. Perhaps, three identical MTM speakers would work out nicely in front. Then for rears a pair of MT bookshelfs using the same speakers.
That would actually be a pretty sweet system, and again, it encompasses quite a range of speaker prices, and represents many poplular speaker designs.
You problably know, but the letter configuration such as MTM describe the speakers and their set up. MTM means Midbas, Tweeter, Midbass. Similar to this -
http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM.html
WWMT means Woofer, Woofer, Midrange, Tweeter similar to this -
http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZDT3.5.html
Hear are a range of speaker kits from Parts Express to give you some ideas -
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage...R=speaker kits&CFID=12445879&CFTOKEN=86191157
As for a Sub, I think Sub are overrated. They certainly do what they do well, and are great for videos, but they are also expensive, and if necessary can wait until later. A low end Sub is about $200, with $300 to $500 being more common, and they can get much more expensive than that.
So, again, your budget and what the budget includes is the starting point.
Steve/bluewizard
Brett (with some response for BlueWizard) -
1: Budget - I am willing to spend up to $3000 on all of the speaker components and the subwoofer amp(s)... but don't need to spend that much if good quality can be found at a lower cost. I currently only have $1500 available to spend, so if it seems necessary, I am willing to build in stages. This budget does not include any other system components.
2: Space Limitations - None (well, they cannot be taller than 4' if the front three are the same). I am willing to use any shape and size speaker in the room. However, I understand, in general, the benefit of larger speakers is not as large in a smaller room. I would like to consider that when making decisions.
3: Subs - I currently do not have any. Having seen the lack of consistency of the use of "5.1" or "7.1" etc on forum posts, I understand your asking. The implication was that I would use one sub. I am open to using more than one, or none at all, but my current expectation is that I will use one sub and would choose / work on the design according to the other speakers that are chosen.
4: Center - Again, the implication of "5.1" was that I do want a center channel. As stated in the original post, "The three front speakers can be placed at ear level in a vertical position". I suppose to be more accurate, I would prefer to have matching left - center - right speakers, and there is enough room to place them at the same level.
5: Existing Design and Build - I suppose I meant to make this more clear in the original post. I prefer to use an existing design in this case. I would, however, also like to make my own enclosures and likely source my own cross-over components.
Hopefully this helps,
Thanks - Chris
1: Budget - I am willing to spend up to $3000 on all of the speaker components and the subwoofer amp(s)... but don't need to spend that much if good quality can be found at a lower cost. I currently only have $1500 available to spend, so if it seems necessary, I am willing to build in stages. This budget does not include any other system components.
2: Space Limitations - None (well, they cannot be taller than 4' if the front three are the same). I am willing to use any shape and size speaker in the room. However, I understand, in general, the benefit of larger speakers is not as large in a smaller room. I would like to consider that when making decisions.
3: Subs - I currently do not have any. Having seen the lack of consistency of the use of "5.1" or "7.1" etc on forum posts, I understand your asking. The implication was that I would use one sub. I am open to using more than one, or none at all, but my current expectation is that I will use one sub and would choose / work on the design according to the other speakers that are chosen.
4: Center - Again, the implication of "5.1" was that I do want a center channel. As stated in the original post, "The three front speakers can be placed at ear level in a vertical position". I suppose to be more accurate, I would prefer to have matching left - center - right speakers, and there is enough room to place them at the same level.
5: Existing Design and Build - I suppose I meant to make this more clear in the original post. I prefer to use an existing design in this case. I would, however, also like to make my own enclosures and likely source my own cross-over components.
Hopefully this helps,
Thanks - Chris
I am willing to skip the sub entirely if the speakers can do the job. I don’t expect my music listening to require much bass extension, but I imagine it would be enjoyable for movies. If I do go with a sub, I would want to have it match up well with the speakers and have minimal phase shift (I may even consider an infinite baffle configuration).
Does it make sense to consider the "all 5 speakers are the same" notion, or is that benefit noticeable? Brett's suggestion of no rear speakers at all seems to indicate that even if I chose to do them, they would have a minimal effect. I suppose the rear crossovers would have to be designed differently since they would be placed closer to walls and reflection points.
-Chris
Does it make sense to consider the "all 5 speakers are the same" notion, or is that benefit noticeable? Brett's suggestion of no rear speakers at all seems to indicate that even if I chose to do them, they would have a minimal effect. I suppose the rear crossovers would have to be designed differently since they would be placed closer to walls and reflection points.
-Chris
More extensive reponse after work tonight, but generally you want all the speakers to have a similar tonality IME. Doesn't mean they need to be identical, but it may work out to be easier to do it that way.cray54 said:
By no rears, I meant speakers 6 and 7. Sides would be of benefit still for movies, but I would dedicate the budget to front L,C and R and sides and a couple of decent subs.
The best speakers I have heard in modest size rooms are the Ariels. Three of these plus some ME2 for sides and some subs would make an excellent system. Anyway, it's a good read.
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/Ariel.html
As for subs, here are some ideas...
http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/
Hmm, all things considered, I believe at this point your interests are best served reading this book, then begin your search and/or get back to us and/or a dedicated HT forum with specific Qs: http://www.gedlee.com/Home_theatre.htm
GM
GM
Brett,
Now I'm picking up what you're putting down... and I think we were on the same page from the beginning. I have a lot left to read on the Ariel / ME2 site (there is a wealth of information, but it seems difficult to navigate).
My first question about this suggestion is about the ME2 for a side surround. I cannot find the source, but I read the MTM configuration tends to perform poorly as a side surroud speaker since its off-axis response in the vertical plane is quite poor compared to the horizontal plane.
-Chris
Now I'm picking up what you're putting down... and I think we were on the same page from the beginning. I have a lot left to read on the Ariel / ME2 site (there is a wealth of information, but it seems difficult to navigate).
My first question about this suggestion is about the ME2 for a side surround. I cannot find the source, but I read the MTM configuration tends to perform poorly as a side surroud speaker since its off-axis response in the vertical plane is quite poor compared to the horizontal plane.
-Chris
No, but I'm familiar with proper HT design and with his work/expertise, so based on his responses to others around the net on this subject I'm comfortable with recommending it to the DIYer interested in doing HT right as opposed to what passes for it on the AV forums these days. I get ill browsing threads of mega $$$ HT builds with little/no consideration for accurate soundtrack playback.
Indeed, I was ~drummed off the HT forums when they transitioned from mini-cinemas as the performance goal to music surround sound TV systems due to my continuing to promote following the DD/DTS/THX/SMPTE speaker, room design guidelines.
GM
Indeed, I was ~drummed off the HT forums when they transitioned from mini-cinemas as the performance goal to music surround sound TV systems due to my continuing to promote following the DD/DTS/THX/SMPTE speaker, room design guidelines.
GM
I don't care about vertical performance much as long as it's well integrated because I generally sit in one position (height) and if there is less energy being spread to the floor and ceiling, then fine. I have used this approach for ages and it works fine.cray54 said:
The Ariel page was simply the first OTTOMH suggestion as it combined a larger floorstander with a similar smaller design where both essentiall are the same except for size and ultimate LF extension, so they will be tonally very similar. The Ariels are a very good speaker, and not that difficult to build - I did it and I have all the woodworking skills of a drunk platypus.
I agree with GM re the following of THX etc guidelines for design.
The THX guidelines for speaker location include the side surrounds being above the ear level of the viewer / listener (I imagine so there is a direct path to the ear), and almost straight sideways. In my estimation, the off-axis response should offer good response in range of locations that ears may be located (across the width of the watching couch). I suppose if turned sideways and aimed appropriately, the MTM configuration could be optimized in that regard.
Is there a website or thread I can go to read about the specific drawbacks of wall mounted and in wall speakers compared to mounted or floor standing speakers?
Thanks,
Chris
Is there a website or thread I can go to read about the specific drawbacks of wall mounted and in wall speakers compared to mounted or floor standing speakers?
Thanks,
Chris
I am interested in getting the book GM suggested. GM (and others), are there any other books that come highly recommended?
In all honesty, I am very interested in learning all of the details associated with HT design and optimization… and I do want to be certain that any money spending is done wisely. However, I’m hoping that through the use of this forum and people’s shared knowledge I can complete a system that is better than my abilities alone can accomplish.
With that in mind, GM may I ask what direction you think I should take if I cannot dedicate enough time to learning the ins and outs?
-Chris
In all honesty, I am very interested in learning all of the details associated with HT design and optimization… and I do want to be certain that any money spending is done wisely. However, I’m hoping that through the use of this forum and people’s shared knowledge I can complete a system that is better than my abilities alone can accomplish.
With that in mind, GM may I ask what direction you think I should take if I cannot dedicate enough time to learning the ins and outs?
-Chris
Are you living in an apartment or a house? If an apartment, then the need for floor shaking bass may be unnecessary (and anti-social 
)
I started with 3 ways for the mains, (10" woofers) and hence there's no real need for a subwoofer (I live in an apartment plus think floor shaking is over-rated).
As time went on, I then added 2 surround speakers, which have different drivers to the mains, but overall a similar character. Obviously you wouldn't mix metal-coned surrounds with paper-coned mains.
After listening to 4-channels (phantom centre) for some years, I'm now building a centre channel, again similar in character to the mains and surrounds.
For surrounds and centre, using 5" 2-ways is the best choice IMO. The Scanspeak 15W revelators are excellent bass-mid drivers if you have the budget.
Lots of good designs at Troels website :
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
www.gattiweb.com
)I started with 3 ways for the mains, (10" woofers) and hence there's no real need for a subwoofer (I live in an apartment plus think floor shaking is over-rated).
As time went on, I then added 2 surround speakers, which have different drivers to the mains, but overall a similar character. Obviously you wouldn't mix metal-coned surrounds with paper-coned mains.
After listening to 4-channels (phantom centre) for some years, I'm now building a centre channel, again similar in character to the mains and surrounds.
For surrounds and centre, using 5" 2-ways is the best choice IMO. The Scanspeak 15W revelators are excellent bass-mid drivers if you have the budget.
Lots of good designs at Troels website :
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
www.gattiweb.com
Brett said:
I've only just looked at the Ariel and ME2 speakers. Would these speakers be suitable as a HT 5.1 setup (70-80% movies 20-30% music). The web site linked said that they are designed to be used with a <60w per channel valve amp. I was planning on building 2 ariels as mains and 3 ME2's as a center and rears. Would the ME2 work horizontally rather than vertically? (to be used as a center speaker)
If the Ariels and ME2's are not good for HT what would you guys recommend?
Thanks.
More and emphasise than an answer but
I have had similar musings; the Ariel/Me2 combination is really attractive as a package. Especially given the community of Ariel builders out there.
I have decided to build something to replace my existing fronts and the Ariel/ME looked good until you get to Lynn's bit about running these things on anything other than valve amps.
Being basically cheap, I don’t really want to move to 5 channels of valve amplification.
So I started, (about a year ago) to think about building some 2 ways and maybe following this up with a stereo pair of subs. Then look at the centre and the rears.
My current Centre is an upgraded Ruark using Vifa 14w509 and a morel tweeter. This is actually pdg so I was thinking of leaving this till last and building picking a scan speak mid if I went for a simple 2 way (think Gamut L3) and then sticking with the same mid/woofer driver to maintain a similar sound/characteristic as I worked around to doing the rears.
Also re the ME2s Center and more often Rear speakers tend to go close to, or even on the wall - and I am a bit of a novice but does that not present a problem for a rear port design like the ME2, I suppose the ports could drop and come to the front of the cabinet, would that effect the baffle step?
Most recently though I found this forum and this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129665
Now I am thinking these would look great as a three way, but I have grave doubts that I have the skills to design a crossover that can deliver a three way.
The trouble is I listen to everything from Classical to rock and movies, so I need fine detail (sadly lacking in my trusty cheapo AE109s) and the ability to blow my hair back when the THX logo plays. Not easy in 1 package on a budget so the approach will be to deliver in 4 stages (fronts, subs, centre and then rears), which keeps my costs less conspicuous.
This all moved a bit closer to reality two weeks ago when a good friend established a decent workshop and announced he is keen to collaborate on some precision woodwork.
So let me know what you chose and how it goes!
Especially if you build the Ariels/ME2s I’d love to know how these deal with HC sources as well as transistor amps.
I need to make a decision and from the meandering above you can tell I am in trouble.
I have had similar musings; the Ariel/Me2 combination is really attractive as a package. Especially given the community of Ariel builders out there.
I have decided to build something to replace my existing fronts and the Ariel/ME looked good until you get to Lynn's bit about running these things on anything other than valve amps.
Being basically cheap, I don’t really want to move to 5 channels of valve amplification.
So I started, (about a year ago) to think about building some 2 ways and maybe following this up with a stereo pair of subs. Then look at the centre and the rears.
My current Centre is an upgraded Ruark using Vifa 14w509 and a morel tweeter. This is actually pdg so I was thinking of leaving this till last and building picking a scan speak mid if I went for a simple 2 way (think Gamut L3) and then sticking with the same mid/woofer driver to maintain a similar sound/characteristic as I worked around to doing the rears.
Also re the ME2s Center and more often Rear speakers tend to go close to, or even on the wall - and I am a bit of a novice but does that not present a problem for a rear port design like the ME2, I suppose the ports could drop and come to the front of the cabinet, would that effect the baffle step?
Most recently though I found this forum and this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129665
Now I am thinking these would look great as a three way, but I have grave doubts that I have the skills to design a crossover that can deliver a three way.
The trouble is I listen to everything from Classical to rock and movies, so I need fine detail (sadly lacking in my trusty cheapo AE109s) and the ability to blow my hair back when the THX logo plays. Not easy in 1 package on a budget so the approach will be to deliver in 4 stages (fronts, subs, centre and then rears), which keeps my costs less conspicuous.
This all moved a bit closer to reality two weeks ago when a good friend established a decent workshop and announced he is keen to collaborate on some precision woodwork.
So let me know what you chose and how it goes!
Especially if you build the Ariels/ME2s I’d love to know how these deal with HC sources as well as transistor amps.
I need to make a decision and from the meandering above you can tell I am in trouble.
Hey cray54. Another option for you to look at that I'm considering.
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/David.html
Check out their forum section for reviews and builds. Somewhat larger in size than what you may want but they seem to be very flexible on usage and what drivers you use to build the top end.
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/David.html
Check out their forum section for reviews and builds. Somewhat larger in size than what you may want but they seem to be very flexible on usage and what drivers you use to build the top end.
Re: More and emphasise than an answer but
I'm still tossing up if the Ariels/ME2s is the right direction.
I'm looking at this build as well:
http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=27222
http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/Statements.html
http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/Statements_Center_Channel.html
http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/MiniStatements.html
Just have to check on price of the drivers and availability.
JokerZero said:
I'm still tossing up if the Ariels/ME2s is the right direction.
I'm looking at this build as well:
http://htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=27222
http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/Statements.html
http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/Statements_Center_Channel.html
http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/MiniStatements.html
Just have to check on price of the drivers and availability.
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