Hello Victorio,
Measurements are not a goal in themselves, they are just a tool to understand the reasons why a system sounds bad.
More an audio component is precise and more it will reveals flaws having other origines. You simply cannot buy a Le Cléac'h horn or whatever waveguide or high quality horn and put it in your system without any idea on what is its proper set-up. It is there where measurements are hepful.
You are free to refute measurements but in that case you loose also a major chance to improve your system.
A main characteristics of the Le Cléac'h horn is its ability to reduce at minimum phase distortion, but this goal can only be reached if several parameters are optimal, like crossover frequency, summation of the low pass and the highpass, time alignement .... If the setup is not correct there is no advantage to use a Le Cléac'h horn, even you can use a horn producing a lot of reflection from mouth to throat.
You have to read on various forums the critics about the Le Cléac'h horn, never it is said harshness is associated to this horn. You have to know that I don't have any commercial interest to promote this horn. I don't build nor commercialize and never received any dollar for sharing my ideas in audio. The Le Cléac'h horn became famous on various forum and through the whole world because it possess many qualities and one of them is the absence of honkiness and harshness.
(for the record, one of the first very famous users of a Le Cléac'h horn was Dave Slagle from Intact Audio)
http://www.arduman.com/aa/Sayfalar/slagle/slagle.htm
http://www.intactaudio.com/
That's sad that you had this bad experience, but I am sure the future buyer of the horns Angelo built for you will be very happy with them.
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
Measurements are not a goal in themselves, they are just a tool to understand the reasons why a system sounds bad.
More an audio component is precise and more it will reveals flaws having other origines. You simply cannot buy a Le Cléac'h horn or whatever waveguide or high quality horn and put it in your system without any idea on what is its proper set-up. It is there where measurements are hepful.
You are free to refute measurements but in that case you loose also a major chance to improve your system.
A main characteristics of the Le Cléac'h horn is its ability to reduce at minimum phase distortion, but this goal can only be reached if several parameters are optimal, like crossover frequency, summation of the low pass and the highpass, time alignement .... If the setup is not correct there is no advantage to use a Le Cléac'h horn, even you can use a horn producing a lot of reflection from mouth to throat.
You have to read on various forums the critics about the Le Cléac'h horn, never it is said harshness is associated to this horn. You have to know that I don't have any commercial interest to promote this horn. I don't build nor commercialize and never received any dollar for sharing my ideas in audio. The Le Cléac'h horn became famous on various forum and through the whole world because it possess many qualities and one of them is the absence of honkiness and harshness.
(for the record, one of the first very famous users of a Le Cléac'h horn was Dave Slagle from Intact Audio)
http://www.arduman.com/aa/Sayfalar/slagle/slagle.htm
http://www.intactaudio.com/
That's sad that you had this bad experience, but I am sure the future buyer of the horns Angelo built for you will be very happy with them.
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
victoriobenatti said:
Hello Jean-Michel,
Angelo, in the manufacture of mine Le Cléac'h horns, did not take care of and it did not calculate the horns on the basis of the parameters that I passed to it, that is, Fc=1500 hz for the medium and Fc=8000 hz for the treble.
I orded it to manufacture new horns following rigorously these parameters, but it does not want to make (or he does not know to make…) e banished still me of forum of the site of it, which I was part and I was one of that more they posts.
If it had manufactured the Le Cléac'h horns that took care of my specifications accurately, the responsibility of them to function well or badly she would be exclusive mine.
I paid the value that charged it me for the Le Cléac'h horns, but it did not make the Le Cléac'h horns that it orded.
He made others.
And does not want to change. I paid with good money and receive bad merchandise.
Best regards from Campinas, Brazil.
Victório Benatti
Angelo, in the manufacture of mine Le Cléac'h horns, did not take care of and it did not calculate the horns on the basis of the parameters that I passed to it, that is, Fc=1500 hz for the medium and Fc=8000 hz for the treble.
I orded it to manufacture new horns following rigorously these parameters, but it does not want to make (or he does not know to make…) e banished still me of forum of the site of it, which I was part and I was one of that more they posts.
If it had manufactured the Le Cléac'h horns that took care of my specifications accurately, the responsibility of them to function well or badly she would be exclusive mine.
I paid the value that charged it me for the Le Cléac'h horns, but it did not make the Le Cléac'h horns that it orded.
He made others.
And does not want to change. I paid with good money and receive bad merchandise.
Best regards from Campinas, Brazil.
Victório Benatti
Victório has freely choosen and accepted me to make for him Fc 800hz cutoff LeCleach horns. Also the size of the tweeter horns was first bespoken, and accepted by him. The combined price was as well for this sized horns. Since he is not satisfied with the result, he tries now to blame me and the horns, i made for him. Most of the explications given from the members of this forum to improve the performance of his system, i have given him privately before. Since he did not believe me, he did choose to post here.
Can someone be trusted, that first tells everyone, how good the result and the new horns are, while the old radialhorns aren't, and suddenly changes opinion , and invents a number of reasons and storys, to blame me ?
Angelo
Can someone be trusted, that first tells everyone, how good the result and the new horns are, while the old radialhorns aren't, and suddenly changes opinion , and invents a number of reasons and storys, to blame me ?
Angelo
I did not invent reason some.
Everything that I said is the most absolute truth.
And has more, the medium horns is different one of the other.
One more than weighs 700 grams what to another one and with the bigger edge 1cm that to another one.
The treble horns are with the holes of entrance of the throat dislocated of the center.
If they doubt what I am speaking, I can post detailed photos showing as they badly are made.
All the horns manufactured for it possess one horrible internal finishing in the throat.
The internal curves of the horns also are not accurately equal.
Beyond not functioning well, very they had been badly made.
Victório Benatti
Everything that I said is the most absolute truth.
And has more, the medium horns is different one of the other.
One more than weighs 700 grams what to another one and with the bigger edge 1cm that to another one.
The treble horns are with the holes of entrance of the throat dislocated of the center.
If they doubt what I am speaking, I can post detailed photos showing as they badly are made.
All the horns manufactured for it possess one horrible internal finishing in the throat.
The internal curves of the horns also are not accurately equal.
Beyond not functioning well, very they had been badly made.
Victório Benatti
There is no way that DIY Audio is able to mediate in situations like this. I think that both sides have had a chance to explain themselves, so I don't want to have more posts regarding this business situation.
If either of the two parties posts further about this situation there will be consequences. NO more posts about your dispute!
I don't want to close the thread because there is good information here about horns and I want that to be able to continue...
Variac
If either of the two parties posts further about this situation there will be consequences. NO more posts about your dispute!
I don't want to close the thread because there is good information here about horns and I want that to be able to continue...
Variac
Hello Jean-Michel,
You did not answer me to an e-mail that I ordered to it a few days ago, where I you asked for to it that hz calculated me the medium horns with Fc=1500 hz and the treble horns with Fc=8000 hz. All with 25 mm of diameter in the entrance of the throat.
Do you received my e-mail ?
I arrived to open a topic on this subject here in the diyAudio, but nobody answered.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=130043
It would like much that somebody calculated the horns it informed and me, through the calculations, which would be the diameter of the exit mouth and the lengths of the horns.
Best regards from Campinas, Brazil.
Victório Benatti
You did not answer me to an e-mail that I ordered to it a few days ago, where I you asked for to it that hz calculated me the medium horns with Fc=1500 hz and the treble horns with Fc=8000 hz. All with 25 mm of diameter in the entrance of the throat.
Do you received my e-mail ?
I arrived to open a topic on this subject here in the diyAudio, but nobody answered.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=130043
It would like much that somebody calculated the horns it informed and me, through the calculations, which would be the diameter of the exit mouth and the lengths of the horns.
Best regards from Campinas, Brazil.
Victório Benatti
Hello Soongsc,
The principle of the method I developped for the calulation of horns is explained in Bjorn Kolbrek's paper in AudioXpress:
"Horn theory. An introduction part 2"
you'll see the description in page 2 and the original graph I published in 1999 in a paper in the review "Musique & Technique" N°6.
In fact the method has evolved a bit and now you can enter a given input angle at the throat.
There is no (known) equation of the profile of a Le Cleac'h horn. David McBean's Hornresp software can be used to calculate the Le Cléac'h horn. Also the spreadsheet can be downloaded for free on the website of my friend Nicolas Davidenko: http://ndaviden.club.fr/pavillon/lecleah.html
A direct link to the spreadsheet is:
http://ndaviden.club.fr/outils/axial.zip
A different version of the spreadsheet if for the calculation of quasi cylindrical wavefronts horns more dedicated to the design of bass horns:
http://ndaviden.club.fr/outils/cylind.zip
I don't ask fees for the use of those spreadsheet (audio is just a hobby for me I share all my ideas in audio for free), I only ask builders using my method to indicate that the horns are Le Cléac'h horns.
The following manufacturers build Le Cléac'h horns:
AzuraHorn (Martin Seddon)
Musique Concrète (Marco Henry)
Azzolina Audio
Alain Audio
and few others more sporadically (Cogent...).
Best regards from France,
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
The principle of the method I developped for the calulation of horns is explained in Bjorn Kolbrek's paper in AudioXpress:
"Horn theory. An introduction part 2"
you'll see the description in page 2 and the original graph I published in 1999 in a paper in the review "Musique & Technique" N°6.
In fact the method has evolved a bit and now you can enter a given input angle at the throat.
There is no (known) equation of the profile of a Le Cleac'h horn. David McBean's Hornresp software can be used to calculate the Le Cléac'h horn. Also the spreadsheet can be downloaded for free on the website of my friend Nicolas Davidenko: http://ndaviden.club.fr/pavillon/lecleah.html
A direct link to the spreadsheet is:
http://ndaviden.club.fr/outils/axial.zip
A different version of the spreadsheet if for the calculation of quasi cylindrical wavefronts horns more dedicated to the design of bass horns:
http://ndaviden.club.fr/outils/cylind.zip
I don't ask fees for the use of those spreadsheet (audio is just a hobby for me I share all my ideas in audio for free), I only ask builders using my method to indicate that the horns are Le Cléac'h horns.
The following manufacturers build Le Cléac'h horns:
AzuraHorn (Martin Seddon)
Musique Concrète (Marco Henry)
Azzolina Audio
Alain Audio
and few others more sporadically (Cogent...).
Best regards from France,
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
soongsc said:
Hello SunRa,
A perfect horn should provide a resistive acoustic impedance and no reactance to the loudspeaker .
Impedance of real horns allways possess a reactive part. At high frequency all horns and waveguide possess a nearly pure resistive impedance. Things differs when frequency decreases.
For horns belonging to the hyperbolic family (from catenoidal to exponential), there is a more or less large peak of reactive impedance around the cut-off frequency (that can be eventually defined as the frequency for which the resistive part is the half value of the acoustic resistance at high frequency).
As an example of acoutical impedance you can see David McBean comparison between measured (circle) and calculated (line) resistive part and reactive part.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1524736&stamp=1212155433
This reactive part of the acoutical impedance is responsible of a variation of phase and a subsequent rise in group delay. Near the cut off the group delay rise a lot and for a medium horn it can be larger than 1 meter (I prefer to express the delay in equivalent distance travelled at the speed of sound). For my own use I only use the horn upon a frequency for which the group delay is lesser than 10 centimeters. If you use a high pass crossover frequency too much near of the cut-off of the horn then the results is that if you have a musical note having a fundamental near that frequency, it will be delayed (more than 1 meter sometimes) from the harmonics. With a violin or whatever instruments it means that there will be some stretching of the shape of the instruments...
But there is also another situation related to phase distortion (or more precisely pulse distortion) it is the reflection of waves from every element creating diffraction inside the horn or more often at mouth. This is responsible of a reflection of a part of the energy of the direct wave in direction of the loudspeaker and a subsequent interference between the reflected wave and the direct wave. The pulse response is distorted and even you may see small delayed pulses on the pulse response measurement.
The Le Cléac'h horn, with its continuous profile and its curved mouth is nearly free of this pulse distortion as you may see on the the pulse reponse,response curve and waterfall of a Le Cléac'h horn
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1531292&stamp=1212610725
(red is for current drive, blue for voltage drive)
For additional informations, give a look to:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1528948#post1528948
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
A perfect horn should provide a resistive acoustic impedance and no reactance to the loudspeaker .
Impedance of real horns allways possess a reactive part. At high frequency all horns and waveguide possess a nearly pure resistive impedance. Things differs when frequency decreases.
For horns belonging to the hyperbolic family (from catenoidal to exponential), there is a more or less large peak of reactive impedance around the cut-off frequency (that can be eventually defined as the frequency for which the resistive part is the half value of the acoustic resistance at high frequency).
As an example of acoutical impedance you can see David McBean comparison between measured (circle) and calculated (line) resistive part and reactive part.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1524736&stamp=1212155433
This reactive part of the acoutical impedance is responsible of a variation of phase and a subsequent rise in group delay. Near the cut off the group delay rise a lot and for a medium horn it can be larger than 1 meter (I prefer to express the delay in equivalent distance travelled at the speed of sound). For my own use I only use the horn upon a frequency for which the group delay is lesser than 10 centimeters. If you use a high pass crossover frequency too much near of the cut-off of the horn then the results is that if you have a musical note having a fundamental near that frequency, it will be delayed (more than 1 meter sometimes) from the harmonics. With a violin or whatever instruments it means that there will be some stretching of the shape of the instruments...
But there is also another situation related to phase distortion (or more precisely pulse distortion) it is the reflection of waves from every element creating diffraction inside the horn or more often at mouth. This is responsible of a reflection of a part of the energy of the direct wave in direction of the loudspeaker and a subsequent interference between the reflected wave and the direct wave. The pulse response is distorted and even you may see small delayed pulses on the pulse response measurement.
The Le Cléac'h horn, with its continuous profile and its curved mouth is nearly free of this pulse distortion as you may see on the the pulse reponse,response curve and waterfall of a Le Cléac'h horn
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1531292&stamp=1212610725
(red is for current drive, blue for voltage drive)
For additional informations, give a look to:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1528948#post1528948
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
SunRa said:
Hello Victorio,
I probably recieved your email on a second email adress I have (at my second office in Fontainebleau 60 kilometers from Paris). I'll will see your message on next tuesday.
The profile of Angelo's horn seem very smooth and even if there is a small difference between the two horns due to the difficulty of the wood working it cannot be the source of any harshness.
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
I probably recieved your email on a second email adress I have (at my second office in Fontainebleau 60 kilometers from Paris). I'll will see your message on next tuesday.
The profile of Angelo's horn seem very smooth and even if there is a small difference between the two horns due to the difficulty of the wood working it cannot be the source of any harshness.
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
victoriobenatti said:
soongsc said:
It has all reason, soongsc
If you will have an power amplifier made especially with all technical characteristics to drive this kind of speakers, mainly damping, you can also hear in high level much better too.
I have various full-range Wharfedale, Lowther, Phillips and JBL.
Victório Benatti
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