I've been considering building a sound system for my bedroom. this is what i've been looking at recently. let me know what you think. oh yes, and i'm very much a beginner, so i don't expect the best. it is a 2.1 setup with two way satellites.
for the woofers...http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-373 in a .08 cu ft enclosure
for the tweeters...http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=270-182
the xover...http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-174
the sub amp...http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-805
i have a 120watt stereo amp as well
the subwoofer is two of these (isobarik) in a 1.5 cu ft box...http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-357
i have a few questions, and i'll get a winisd pic up soon. just let me know if this is possible. i'll want to use it for listening to modern rock/alt. and soundtrack.
for the woofers...http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-373 in a .08 cu ft enclosure
for the tweeters...http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=270-182
the xover...http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-174
the sub amp...http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-805
i have a 120watt stereo amp as well
the subwoofer is two of these (isobarik) in a 1.5 cu ft box...http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-357
i have a few questions, and i'll get a winisd pic up soon. just let me know if this is possible. i'll want to use it for listening to modern rock/alt. and soundtrack.
One small drawback to the crossover, though I'm sure others will say there is more than one.
The crossover is only a high pass, in other words, it only acts on the tweeter. You depend on the natural roll off of the woofer to act as its crossover.
The Goldwood's look appealing, but there are no frequency response graphs for them, though you could try to get them from Goldwood. Without a frequency response graph, you don't know if there are any nasty peaks above the working range that are going to mess things up.
Actually, there is a graph for the 4" woofer as can be seen here -
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-373g.pdf
Notice the peak around 5,000hz to 6,000hz. If you don't want that peak to substantially color your output, then you need to make sure the crossover is low enough that this peak is insignificant when it occurs. I would say 2khz to 2.5khz, but that is just a guess.
In short, you can't use the crossover you selected.
You need something closer to this -
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-140
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-144
A more precise, but generic, crossover can be designed at the precise frequency you want to cross at.
Now we have the second problem, the tweeter has a rated low response of 2,000hz, so you need to crossover above 2,000hz. However, the tweeter also has a moderately high power rating. So that means you can probably get by with a 2.5khz crossover at 12db per octave.
Here is Part Express Crossover Selector Guide -
http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/crossover-component-selection-guide.cfm
Match the impedance of the speaker, the selected crossover frequency, and you will find the components you need. Though I don't think the low pass goes high enough for you.
So, we need another source.
Second Order (12db/octave) Two-Way Crossover -
- Linkwitz-Riley or Butterworth
http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html
Next, just to educate yourself, you need to read this, -
http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/crossover-help.cfm
and more importantly, this -
http://sound.westhost.com/lr-passive.htm
If you have WinISD, resist the temptation to tune the cabinets with a huge bass peak. That peak doesn't come without a price. A slight peak to bring you -3db response as low as possible is OK, but excesive peak in the bass will cause problems.
Before anyone freaks out about the generic crossovers, this is an economy system. The 4" woofers are $8 each, the tweeters are $10 each, and the subwoofers are $16 each.
Whoops, I just notice you selected DVC (Dual Voice Coil) subs, did you mean to do that, and why?
That is a level of complication you don't need.
Try this -
Goldwood GW-8028 8" Butyl Surround Woofer 8 Ohm @ $17.50 each
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-355
Frequency response: 35-2,500 Hz
which is better low response than the sub you originally picked.
There are more complications like L-Pads and Zobel networks, but let's leave those for later.
Steve/bluewizard
The crossover is only a high pass, in other words, it only acts on the tweeter. You depend on the natural roll off of the woofer to act as its crossover.
The Goldwood's look appealing, but there are no frequency response graphs for them, though you could try to get them from Goldwood. Without a frequency response graph, you don't know if there are any nasty peaks above the working range that are going to mess things up.
Actually, there is a graph for the 4" woofer as can be seen here -
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-373g.pdf
Notice the peak around 5,000hz to 6,000hz. If you don't want that peak to substantially color your output, then you need to make sure the crossover is low enough that this peak is insignificant when it occurs. I would say 2khz to 2.5khz, but that is just a guess.
In short, you can't use the crossover you selected.
You need something closer to this -
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-140
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-144
A more precise, but generic, crossover can be designed at the precise frequency you want to cross at.
Now we have the second problem, the tweeter has a rated low response of 2,000hz, so you need to crossover above 2,000hz. However, the tweeter also has a moderately high power rating. So that means you can probably get by with a 2.5khz crossover at 12db per octave.
Here is Part Express Crossover Selector Guide -
http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/crossover-component-selection-guide.cfm
Match the impedance of the speaker, the selected crossover frequency, and you will find the components you need. Though I don't think the low pass goes high enough for you.
So, we need another source.
Second Order (12db/octave) Two-Way Crossover -
- Linkwitz-Riley or Butterworth
http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Misc/filter2.html
Next, just to educate yourself, you need to read this, -
http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/crossover-help.cfm
and more importantly, this -
http://sound.westhost.com/lr-passive.htm
If you have WinISD, resist the temptation to tune the cabinets with a huge bass peak. That peak doesn't come without a price. A slight peak to bring you -3db response as low as possible is OK, but excesive peak in the bass will cause problems.
Before anyone freaks out about the generic crossovers, this is an economy system. The 4" woofers are $8 each, the tweeters are $10 each, and the subwoofers are $16 each.
Whoops, I just notice you selected DVC (Dual Voice Coil) subs, did you mean to do that, and why?
That is a level of complication you don't need.
Try this -
Goldwood GW-8028 8" Butyl Surround Woofer 8 Ohm @ $17.50 each
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-355
Frequency response: 35-2,500 Hz
which is better low response than the sub you originally picked.
There are more complications like L-Pads and Zobel networks, but let's leave those for later.
Steve/bluewizard
thatotherguy said:
I would say you want to stay away form 'hard cone' woofers, they tend to have nasty break up above the working range that complicate crossover design.
Find woofers with the fewest complications possible.
If the plate amp has speaker OUTPUTS, then likely it has a high pass.
Steve/bluewizard
Hi,
Oh dear, nightmare waiting to happen.
The Goldwoods do not look appealing, they look appalling .....
For the speakers look no further than : http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZBM4.html
Noting you need an AV amplifier for proper filtering, the satellite
"filters" fitted to plate amplifiers do not work, to be avoided.
The plate amplifier is possibly too powerful for the application.
Consider :
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/50-6272
Good documentation and features, note continuous phase.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80138
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79582
Contains some useful information.
Avoid the Goldwood subwoofers, too much of an unknown quantity.
/sreten.
Oh dear, nightmare waiting to happen.
The Goldwoods do not look appealing, they look appalling .....
For the speakers look no further than : http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZBM4.html
Noting you need an AV amplifier for proper filtering, the satellite
"filters" fitted to plate amplifiers do not work, to be avoided.
The plate amplifier is possibly too powerful for the application.
Consider :
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/50-6272
Good documentation and features, note continuous phase.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=80138
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79582
Contains some useful information.
Avoid the Goldwood subwoofers, too much of an unknown quantity.
/sreten.kk thx for all the input... just remember as it fist was, it totaled $230 after shipping. this is very much a budget build. thats why i have the goldwoods and generic xovers. i do see the points though. i think i may be confused a bit about the sub, does the plate amp have single or two channel output?
so obviously im going cheapo on the xovers. i've noticed that buying the components separately can add up. what do you think about this one?http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-144
i guess alot of this is beside the point, because i've about decided to spend my money on other stuff. (or save)
just to let you know my present sound system is a total mess. it sounds good, but technically its a mess.
thx for the info again. im still considering it, maybe just the sub(nice plate amp on sale!). any ideas?
so obviously im going cheapo on the xovers. i've noticed that buying the components separately can add up. what do you think about this one?http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-144
i guess alot of this is beside the point, because i've about decided to spend my money on other stuff. (or save)
just to let you know my present sound system is a total mess. it sounds good, but technically its a mess.
thx for the info again. im still considering it, maybe just the sub(nice plate amp on sale!). any ideas?
I too was thinking that maybe the Sub Amp was overkill for this system, but my posts tend to be so long and rambling, that I didn't want to deal with every issue in one post.
There is a 75% difference in price between the two (or $60), the Amp Sreten suggests has plenty of real power for a small system like this. And as he also points out, it is probably better documented. The website has links to a technical data sheet and an owner's manual in PDF format which you can view before you purchase.
As to the Goldwood speakers, that is a tricky business. I really want the Goldwood speakers to be good, and the fact that they are in business and stay in business is some small tribute to their speakers. Yet, it bothers me that they don't make a technical datasheets readily available for every speaker they make. I'm guessing if you email them, you might get something from them, but it shouldn't be that hard. The data should be readily available from sellers and from the manufacturer's website.
When ever I consider making speakers using Goldwood, I am always stopped by that fact that I don't have enough information to make a decision about whether this speaker will work for me or not - no datasheet.
In your case, for a low budget system, they will probably work fine. Your underlying design is pretty straight forward, and using the bass speaker as a sub means, we will only be using one small somewhat easy range for the speakers.
Don't be totally discourage because of our hesitance regarding Goldwood. They do make speakers and they will certainly work, and if your budget is really hopelessly strained, then they will probably work for you.
But, if you can stretch your budget upward, new and better possibilities open up for you.
For the crossovers, if you can't find one at a 2,500hz, one can be easily built from components.
You are going to need two coils for each crossover, and they are in the $5 to $8 each range.
Two capacitors for each crossover at $2 to $4 each.
Two resistor for each crossover @ about $1.25 each.
That's roughly $18 each.
So, $18xo + $8w + $10t = $36 each speaker without cabinets. If you could find the correct off-the-shelf crossover, you could maybe save $5.
The Zaph budget speakers suggested are about $40 each, though you would have to verify that at current prices.
But consider this as an alternative - Tang Band Full Range speakers. They are roughly $20 apiece and they only go down to about 100hz, but they are very flat from 100hz up to 15,000hz. So, that saves you the expense of building crossovers.
Some examples to look at -
These speakers are relatively flat across 65hz to about 15khz -
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-818
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-817
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-820
Plus, they look cool.
Don't be discourage, even for the experts, building speakers is always a struggle between seemingly infinite choices and decisions.
If you would like, give us a realistic budget estimate for the Fronts and the Sub (separately), and give us some time to think about it. We may be able to come up with a better solution that fits your budget.
Again, don't be discouraged. People here are usually spending a $1,000 or more on home-built speakers, but that doesn't mean we don't know what it's like to be struggling on a tight budget.
to your core question - is this plausable? The answer is Yes, with the changes I've suggested, and you can save $60 that can possibly go to better front speakers, if you get the plate amp that Sreten suggests.
Again, don't be discouraged.
Steve/bluewizard
There is a 75% difference in price between the two (or $60), the Amp Sreten suggests has plenty of real power for a small system like this. And as he also points out, it is probably better documented. The website has links to a technical data sheet and an owner's manual in PDF format which you can view before you purchase.
As to the Goldwood speakers, that is a tricky business. I really want the Goldwood speakers to be good, and the fact that they are in business and stay in business is some small tribute to their speakers. Yet, it bothers me that they don't make a technical datasheets readily available for every speaker they make. I'm guessing if you email them, you might get something from them, but it shouldn't be that hard. The data should be readily available from sellers and from the manufacturer's website.
When ever I consider making speakers using Goldwood, I am always stopped by that fact that I don't have enough information to make a decision about whether this speaker will work for me or not - no datasheet.
In your case, for a low budget system, they will probably work fine. Your underlying design is pretty straight forward, and using the bass speaker as a sub means, we will only be using one small somewhat easy range for the speakers.
Don't be totally discourage because of our hesitance regarding Goldwood. They do make speakers and they will certainly work, and if your budget is really hopelessly strained, then they will probably work for you.
But, if you can stretch your budget upward, new and better possibilities open up for you.
For the crossovers, if you can't find one at a 2,500hz, one can be easily built from components.
You are going to need two coils for each crossover, and they are in the $5 to $8 each range.
Two capacitors for each crossover at $2 to $4 each.
Two resistor for each crossover @ about $1.25 each.
That's roughly $18 each.
So, $18xo + $8w + $10t = $36 each speaker without cabinets. If you could find the correct off-the-shelf crossover, you could maybe save $5.
The Zaph budget speakers suggested are about $40 each, though you would have to verify that at current prices.
But consider this as an alternative - Tang Band Full Range speakers. They are roughly $20 apiece and they only go down to about 100hz, but they are very flat from 100hz up to 15,000hz. So, that saves you the expense of building crossovers.
Some examples to look at -
These speakers are relatively flat across 65hz to about 15khz -
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-818
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-817
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-820
Plus, they look cool.
Don't be discourage, even for the experts, building speakers is always a struggle between seemingly infinite choices and decisions.
If you would like, give us a realistic budget estimate for the Fronts and the Sub (separately), and give us some time to think about it. We may be able to come up with a better solution that fits your budget.
Again, don't be discouraged. People here are usually spending a $1,000 or more on home-built speakers, but that doesn't mean we don't know what it's like to be struggling on a tight budget.
to your core question - is this plausable? The answer is Yes, with the changes I've suggested, and you can save $60 that can possibly go to better front speakers, if you get the plate amp that Sreten suggests.
Again, don't be discouraged.
Steve/bluewizard
Hi,
Given the time and effort it takes to make nice boxes saving a few
dollars on poor drivers and crossovers is a total false economy.
FWIW for a bedroom I'd forget about the subwoofer completely
and build a decent pair of $200 speakers for your 120w amplifier.
They will sound vastly better than your plans.
e.g. for ~ $175 : http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM.html
The floorstander does not need a subwoofer.
/sreten.
Given the time and effort it takes to make nice boxes saving a few
dollars on poor drivers and crossovers is a total false economy.
FWIW for a bedroom I'd forget about the subwoofer completely
and build a decent pair of $200 speakers for your 120w amplifier.
They will sound vastly better than your plans.
e.g. for ~ $175 : http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM.html
The floorstander does not need a subwoofer.
/sreten.Here is another thought, I'm not much of a Subwoofer guy. I go for straight up stereo.
Consider as an alternative losing the Sub, and plowing that money into better main speakers. If your budget is about $200 to $300, that would buy some pretty nice and proven design MTM's (Midbass, Tweeter, Midbass). Look on the Zaph site for example. These are so popular that they are available in preconfigured kits with custom designed crossovers.
Example -
Dayton A532C Speaker Kit Cherry @ $169 each
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/psho...992&FTR=302-992&CFID=6937688&CFTOKEN=34716950
From my understanding this is a complete speaker ready to assemble and includes the cabinets in cherry, though black is also available. You can also get it with straight sides or curved sides.
Dayton A732 Speaker Kit - cherry/black/maple @ $189 each
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/psho...982&FTR=302-982&CFID=6937688&CFTOKEN=34716950
Dayton RS722 Speaker Kit - black/cherry/maple @ $219 each
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/psho...970&FTR=302-970&CFID=6937688&CFTOKEN=34716950
Admittedly that is pushing your budget, but the results are certainly impressive, and while the cabinets are not 'pixie' cabinets they are still reasonable compact.
Also, you could probably cut the cost nearly in half by building the cabinets yourself; keep that in mind. I think they all use the standard Dayton 1 cubic foot cabinet which is about $100 each.
Some of these are documented in the Parts Express DIY Project area, and I'm sure Parts Express would sell the complete kits including the crossovers minus the cabinets.
I'm just saying consider the possibilities.
Steve/bluewizard
Consider as an alternative losing the Sub, and plowing that money into better main speakers. If your budget is about $200 to $300, that would buy some pretty nice and proven design MTM's (Midbass, Tweeter, Midbass). Look on the Zaph site for example. These are so popular that they are available in preconfigured kits with custom designed crossovers.
Example -
Dayton A532C Speaker Kit Cherry @ $169 each
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/psho...992&FTR=302-992&CFID=6937688&CFTOKEN=34716950
From my understanding this is a complete speaker ready to assemble and includes the cabinets in cherry, though black is also available. You can also get it with straight sides or curved sides.
Dayton A732 Speaker Kit - cherry/black/maple @ $189 each
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/psho...982&FTR=302-982&CFID=6937688&CFTOKEN=34716950
Dayton RS722 Speaker Kit - black/cherry/maple @ $219 each
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/psho...970&FTR=302-970&CFID=6937688&CFTOKEN=34716950
Admittedly that is pushing your budget, but the results are certainly impressive, and while the cabinets are not 'pixie' cabinets they are still reasonable compact.
Also, you could probably cut the cost nearly in half by building the cabinets yourself; keep that in mind. I think they all use the standard Dayton 1 cubic foot cabinet which is about $100 each.
Some of these are documented in the Parts Express DIY Project area, and I'm sure Parts Express would sell the complete kits including the crossovers minus the cabinets.
I'm just saying consider the possibilities.
Steve/bluewizard
Silk or metal tweeter is really a moot point since design of the crossover is way way more important. Also in this case, quality of the tweeters you mention is problematic. The off the shelf x-over is also a no-no.
I second and strongly suggest you consider Zaph's ZBM4 design or his BAMTM design
Good luck,
Peter
I second and strongly suggest you consider Zaph's ZBM4 design or his BAMTM design
Good luck,
Peter
ok thx alot for getting back to me, i really didn't expect that . anyway, you may have a point. what i guess im looking for is something cheap that can be loud if necessary. i basically want more clarity than a cheap paper cone. like i said earlier, i listen to modern rock and alternative, so bass is still important to me. id still like that subwoofer thump.
the problem i was running into with the extended range drivers was the low wattage. the other problem, is usually in diy audio the cabinets are huge. so i'd like it to be somewhat good looking if not small.
what about a tall thin floorstanding cabinet with one of the TB's you suggested? are those last ones any good (ok, ok, i dont mean to be a freak, but the 90watts did catch my eye )? maybe those ported, with a sub?
btw Thanks ALOT for the help. If this was OCN you would be getting massive rep!...lol
. anyway, you may have a point. what i guess im looking for is something cheap that can be loud if necessary. i basically want more clarity than a cheap paper cone. like i said earlier, i listen to modern rock and alternative, so bass is still important to me. id still like that subwoofer thump.the problem i was running into with the extended range drivers was the low wattage. the other problem, is usually in diy audio the cabinets are huge. so i'd like it to be somewhat good looking if not small.
what about a tall thin floorstanding cabinet with one of the TB's you suggested? are those last ones any good (ok, ok, i dont mean to be a freak, but the 90watts did catch my eye
)? maybe those ported, with a sub?btw Thanks ALOT for the help. If this was OCN you would be getting massive rep!...lol
k i missed the MTM post.
basically i dont like the big ugly loudspeaker cabinets. maybe im just weird. anyway for me, midbass isn't as important as low bass and treble. also remember my amp doesnt have so great of a bass boost function. it sounds kindof, um i guess muddy.
oh yea and thx for clearing up the tweeter stuff. i guess that makes sense.
basically i dont like the big ugly loudspeaker cabinets. maybe im just weird. anyway for me, midbass isn't as important as low bass and treble. also remember my amp doesnt have so great of a bass boost function. it sounds kindof, um i guess muddy.
oh yea and thx for clearing up the tweeter stuff. i guess that makes sense.
The Tang Band have their own little quirks but the are generally regarded as a good speaker.
In this example, we are referring to the -
Tang Band W4-656SC 4" Shielded Driver @ $26.85
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-820
It's nice, and I'm sure appeals to you because of its 45 watts RMS/90 watts max power rating. But, while adequate, it is slightly weak on the high end. But again, it is probably sufficient.
Another possibility is the Dayton Reference 4" full range -
Dayton RS100S-8 4" Reference Shielded Full-Range @ $26.83
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-358
Aluminum cone and aluminum dome woofer. Rated down to 83hz and up to 20khz, and it really does go solidly in both directions. It does have a slight peak around 15khz, but other than that it look reasonably good.
But, here is what I think you will find the drawback - Power handling: 30 watts RMS/45 watts max.
The Dayton is the better driver, but less power. However, if you could stretch it, you might be able to create an MM design, using two in one very small cabinet. The Vas is 0.7 cu.ft. Try modeling both one and two speaker version in Win ISD and see how it looks.
Two speakers per cabinet stretches your budget, but if it has the bass, and you can tweak the high end peak, it should be a pretty sweet system.
You are up against, the great dilemma of speaker building, one that we all go through...which speaker to use. No matter which one we pick, there is ALWAYS something wrong or something better for a little more money. At some point, you just have to lock it in and go.
Keep searching, and eventually you will stumble across the combination that works for you.
Also, don't discount the MTM kits. The cabinets on the smallest of those ($169) is only 20" x 8" x 13" with solid response down to 45hz. That's bigger than a tiny bookshelf, but it is barely a mini-tower.
Big boxes and big speakers move Big Air, and that is a good thing.
You add a Sub to these at a later date and you will have one killer system.
Their smallest kit is a 6.5" 2-way in 14"h x 8.5"w x 11'd cabinets. Again using all Dayton components and costing $ 140/pair including the cabinets in black, cherry, or maple.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-640
There is a construction plan published for these speakers which included crossover designs, so you could just buy the raw speakers and the crossover components, and make your own boxes. That should cut the cost down.
If you are frustrated by all the confusion and options, welcome to the club. That's how we all feel at this stage of the game.
Steve/bluewizard
In this example, we are referring to the -
Tang Band W4-656SC 4" Shielded Driver @ $26.85
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-820
It's nice, and I'm sure appeals to you because of its 45 watts RMS/90 watts max power rating. But, while adequate, it is slightly weak on the high end. But again, it is probably sufficient.
Another possibility is the Dayton Reference 4" full range -
Dayton RS100S-8 4" Reference Shielded Full-Range @ $26.83
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-358
Aluminum cone and aluminum dome woofer. Rated down to 83hz and up to 20khz, and it really does go solidly in both directions. It does have a slight peak around 15khz, but other than that it look reasonably good.
But, here is what I think you will find the drawback - Power handling: 30 watts RMS/45 watts max.
The Dayton is the better driver, but less power. However, if you could stretch it, you might be able to create an MM design, using two in one very small cabinet. The Vas is 0.7 cu.ft. Try modeling both one and two speaker version in Win ISD and see how it looks.
Two speakers per cabinet stretches your budget, but if it has the bass, and you can tweak the high end peak, it should be a pretty sweet system.
You are up against, the great dilemma of speaker building, one that we all go through...which speaker to use. No matter which one we pick, there is ALWAYS something wrong or something better for a little more money. At some point, you just have to lock it in and go.
Keep searching, and eventually you will stumble across the combination that works for you.
Also, don't discount the MTM kits. The cabinets on the smallest of those ($169) is only 20" x 8" x 13" with solid response down to 45hz. That's bigger than a tiny bookshelf, but it is barely a mini-tower.
Big boxes and big speakers move Big Air, and that is a good thing.
You add a Sub to these at a later date and you will have one killer system.
Their smallest kit is a 6.5" 2-way in 14"h x 8.5"w x 11'd cabinets. Again using all Dayton components and costing $ 140/pair including the cabinets in black, cherry, or maple.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-640
There is a construction plan published for these speakers which included crossover designs, so you could just buy the raw speakers and the crossover components, and make your own boxes. That should cut the cost down.
If you are frustrated by all the confusion and options, welcome to the club. That's how we all feel at this stage of the game.
Steve/bluewizard
cool, thx once again. ok so maybe i was wrong. i guess my power gauging was off. i checked the amp again and it's 120watts TOTAL pwr. as in that is its power usage. so 50watts total will work. somehow i should've known... lol serves me right. also i should mention its load range is 6-16 ohms. do you think the dayton can really reach 20khz? i think it was on PE the reviews said it wasnt good for full range...but who knows if thats credible.
i'll check out the dayton and the tang bands in winisd.
Is there a difference in the sound quality of aluminum compared to paper?
as always thanks alot for all the input.
. also i should mention its load range is 6-16 ohms. do you think the dayton can really reach 20khz? i think it was on PE the reviews said it wasnt good for full range...but who knows if thats credible.i'll check out the dayton and the tang bands in winisd.
Is there a difference in the sound quality of aluminum compared to paper?
as always thanks alot for all the input.
This is what the graph looks like. the tang bands will roll off at about 100hz in a small enclosure, they'll probably need a sub. the lowest they can go is about 50hz in a enclosure about the size of the dayton vented.
The dayton will roll off at about the same place when sealed in a slightly larger enclosure. the dayton in the vented enclosure is 0.727 cu ft. my idea was that it would be slim floorstanding. 5.75 W x 8.625 D x 43in T. that wouldn't necessarily need a sub.
fixed picture
The dayton will roll off at about the same place when sealed in a slightly larger enclosure. the dayton in the vented enclosure is 0.727 cu ft. my idea was that it would be slim floorstanding. 5.75 W x 8.625 D x 43in T. that wouldn't necessarily need a sub.
fixed picture
Do I think the Daytons will go to 20khz, yes, ... sort of.
Here is a link to the technical datasheet on this speaker. Look at the frequency response graph. Yo may need to enlarge it to get a good view.
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-358s.pdf
It does continue on to +20khz, but it as a peak at 13khz or 14khz. That could be dealt with using a simple notch filter, or so I'm assuming.
You may or may not even notice that bright spot at 13khz.
Here is my plot for the RS100S-8 single speaker in a 0.40Cu.Ft. Cabinet with dimensions of 7.25"w x 8"d x 11.92"h with 1.5" port 4.67" deep, tuned to 45hz.
Response down to 39hz at -3db. Deviation from flat +2db and -1db.
I've shrunk the cabinet to make it more bookshelf size, but your slim tower might work too.
For about 0.73 cu.ft., the inside dimensions would be closer to -
5.75"w x 8.625"d x 25.45"h
Using your cabinet volume, I got the best tuning around 40hz with a 2" dia x 5.64" deep port. That takes it down to about 36hz.
Others may want to check the details on this. I've just started using WinISD and there are a lot of things I don't understand.
Steve/bluewizard
Here is a link to the technical datasheet on this speaker. Look at the frequency response graph. Yo may need to enlarge it to get a good view.
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-358s.pdf
It does continue on to +20khz, but it as a peak at 13khz or 14khz. That could be dealt with using a simple notch filter, or so I'm assuming.
You may or may not even notice that bright spot at 13khz.
Here is my plot for the RS100S-8 single speaker in a 0.40Cu.Ft. Cabinet with dimensions of 7.25"w x 8"d x 11.92"h with 1.5" port 4.67" deep, tuned to 45hz.
Response down to 39hz at -3db. Deviation from flat +2db and -1db.
I've shrunk the cabinet to make it more bookshelf size, but your slim tower might work too.
For about 0.73 cu.ft., the inside dimensions would be closer to -
5.75"w x 8.625"d x 25.45"h
Using your cabinet volume, I got the best tuning around 40hz with a 2" dia x 5.64" deep port. That takes it down to about 36hz.
Others may want to check the details on this. I've just started using WinISD and there are a lot of things I don't understand.
Steve/bluewizard
whats BSC? its 4" btw not that that makes too much difference. I'd be happy to hear your ideas too...
i guess i could always use my 8" paper cone woofers that i have, no specs though. i could buy a plate amp for them. they're from a loudspeaker, so they are in an enclosure approx. 1 cu ft ea. tuned to approx. 36hz. i could put them isobarik, and assuming that really does half the Vas, put them in a .5 cu ft box tuned the same. use the plate amp xover. that might be overkill though, they're each rated at like 160watts max. about 4 ohm.
the 4'' tang bands look good, except for the drop off at 15k or so. seems pointless to get that close and have to use a tweeter anyway.*shrug*
what about a 3''? the power handling seems to be lower though.
the 4 ohm version of the dayton rolls off nicely in a smaller size box. still has the peak at 13k, but at least it reaches 20khz. the 4 ohm would also allow for a notch filter, and still end up with a decent resistance.
i guess i could always use my 8" paper cone woofers that i have, no specs though. i could buy a plate amp for them. they're from a loudspeaker, so they are in an enclosure approx. 1 cu ft ea. tuned to approx. 36hz. i could put them isobarik, and assuming that really does half the Vas, put them in a .5 cu ft box tuned the same. use the plate amp xover. that might be overkill though, they're each rated at like 160watts max. about 4 ohm.
the 4'' tang bands look good, except for the drop off at 15k or so. seems pointless to get that close and have to use a tweeter anyway.*shrug*
what about a 3''? the power handling seems to be lower though.
the 4 ohm version of the dayton rolls off nicely in a smaller size box. still has the peak at 13k, but at least it reaches 20khz. the 4 ohm would also allow for a notch filter, and still end up with a decent resistance.
Sreten,
Offer a true budget alternative.
It's easy to say we are wrong, but it's not productive unless you counter with what is right.
The guy is on a budget, a very lean budget. It seems, I presume, that when the basic crossover was added in and the original speakers were added up, the price was pushing the limit.
I tried to offer alternatives. Any alleged full-range speaker is going to be flawed. It is the nature of the beast. But none the less, you hook them up, put on a CD, and music comes out, rather pleasant sounding music. Is it perfect, no. Does it work, yes.
The Dayton 4" full range is a possibility. But like every conceivable possibility, it is a compromise. The question is, is it a compromise the original poster can live with?
Also, you haven't been reading too closely. The Dayton as far as I know has a Vas of about 0.73 Cubic Feet or about 20 liters.
I reduced that cabinet to 0.40 Cubic Feet or about 11 liters because the guy doesn't like big cabinets. I wanted to see how low the volume could reasonably go. My F3 according to WinISD was about 40hz.
The original poster used 20 liters and got response modeled down to about 36hz. Both cabinets with 'do-able' ports.
Your suggestions of the ZBM4 were good. But I suspect that would be pushing the top of the budget at $40 each when the webpage was made. The current cost would need to be verified.
Also, the Zaph BAMTM is also a good choice, but the budget is up there and the cabinets are big.
Even I tried to steer him toward nice MTM systems, and even MT systems, but he seems resistant.
So, I'm looking for things that fit his budget and mindset.
We are looking for possible ways to solve the problem within the context presented.
I mean if we really want to go the cheap route, Parts Express has some ready-made Pioneers ranging from $30 for a pair of complete factory-made 5.25" 2-way, $50 for a pair of 6.5" 2-way, and $76 for a pair of 8" 3-way.
MTX has similar factory made 5.25" 2-way systems for $60 a pair, and a nice factory made MTM system for $200 a pair; and several other small and similar speakers.
But is the ultimate goal to have speakers, or to make speakers; at the moment it seems to be 'make speakers'.
I'm trying to point this person to every possible solution within the context he's laid out. If he changes the context, then I'll made other recommendations.
So, to what I assume is your central point, yes, any single full-range raw speaker is going to be flawed to some degree, as is virtually any design he could make or consider. The question is, is it sufficient to matter in this context?
Steve/bluewizard
Offer a true budget alternative.
It's easy to say we are wrong, but it's not productive unless you counter with what is right.
The guy is on a budget, a very lean budget. It seems, I presume, that when the basic crossover was added in and the original speakers were added up, the price was pushing the limit.
I tried to offer alternatives. Any alleged full-range speaker is going to be flawed. It is the nature of the beast. But none the less, you hook them up, put on a CD, and music comes out, rather pleasant sounding music. Is it perfect, no. Does it work, yes.
The Dayton 4" full range is a possibility. But like every conceivable possibility, it is a compromise. The question is, is it a compromise the original poster can live with?
Also, you haven't been reading too closely. The Dayton as far as I know has a Vas of about 0.73 Cubic Feet or about 20 liters.
I reduced that cabinet to 0.40 Cubic Feet or about 11 liters because the guy doesn't like big cabinets. I wanted to see how low the volume could reasonably go. My F3 according to WinISD was about 40hz.
The original poster used 20 liters and got response modeled down to about 36hz. Both cabinets with 'do-able' ports.
Your suggestions of the ZBM4 were good. But I suspect that would be pushing the top of the budget at $40 each when the webpage was made. The current cost would need to be verified.
Also, the Zaph BAMTM is also a good choice, but the budget is up there and the cabinets are big.
Even I tried to steer him toward nice MTM systems, and even MT systems, but he seems resistant.
So, I'm looking for things that fit his budget and mindset.
We are looking for possible ways to solve the problem within the context presented.
I mean if we really want to go the cheap route, Parts Express has some ready-made Pioneers ranging from $30 for a pair of complete factory-made 5.25" 2-way, $50 for a pair of 6.5" 2-way, and $76 for a pair of 8" 3-way.
MTX has similar factory made 5.25" 2-way systems for $60 a pair, and a nice factory made MTM system for $200 a pair; and several other small and similar speakers.
But is the ultimate goal to have speakers, or to make speakers; at the moment it seems to be 'make speakers'.
I'm trying to point this person to every possible solution within the context he's laid out. If he changes the context, then I'll made other recommendations.
So, to what I assume is your central point, yes, any single full-range raw speaker is going to be flawed to some degree, as is virtually any design he could make or consider. The question is, is it sufficient to matter in this context?
Steve/bluewizard
i guess i haven't been giving you specifics. i've also been waffling quite a bit so im sorry ill try to clear this up.
first of all, budget. i wouldn't like to spend too much on this. i don't think i could force myself to spend more than $200 total, so i guess that will be the ceiling. ideally it would be about $100 (less would be cool too ). whether this is realistic, im not sure, thus the higher limit.
second, space. where i have my current ones allows for about 10.75" tall and about 7" deep. width is only limited by looks. there is one on a bookshelf, one on a desk. this may not be optimal, in fact there is no real good place to sit in between these. i would be willing to re-arange though so i could listen on the couch. other than these places, there are few places to put small bookshelf speakers unless they are on stands.
btw, the room is about 10' x 14'
i should also probably warn you, im still deciding whether too spend my money on this, or on something else. i have to decide if its worth it to me.
the ZBM4 looks decent, but how much power can it handle? is it enough to reach a decent volume at 3' - 6'? also with the room its in, it would probably need the port in the front...(space limitations)
so maybe a full range, maybe a two-way. preferably ones that can stand alone, but eventually have a sub added, or start with a sub if cheap enough. i'd also like it too be able to work with my current amp. I'm not against what you suggested, just as long as the price, size, and looks are decent.
if i do build a sub, i was thinking about this 8" dayton sub http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-480 with the amp sreten suggested. its too early to say for sure, but my guess is about 1.5 cu ft tuned to 27.(about what winisd suggests).
as far as larger floorstanders and looks, i don't like wide enclosures. as zaph called them, monkey coffins. for looks as well as space limitations in my room. i'd also prefer the tweeter, if there is one, to be at ear level.
you could be right though, maybe i should just buy some. like some cheaper satellites, mount them in the corners of the ceiling, and build a sub. this may not sound so good for music though. i'd like it too be clear sound.
i apologize for the choppiness and poor spelling of this post, but i had alot to squeeze in here. i hope i've cleared some things up, and as always thanks for the help.
first of all, budget. i wouldn't like to spend too much on this. i don't think i could force myself to spend more than $200 total, so i guess that will be the ceiling. ideally it would be about $100 (less would be cool too
). whether this is realistic, im not sure, thus the higher limit.second, space. where i have my current ones allows for about 10.75" tall and about 7" deep. width is only limited by looks. there is one on a bookshelf, one on a desk. this may not be optimal, in fact there is no real good place to sit in between these. i would be willing to re-arange though so i could listen on the couch. other than these places, there are few places to put small bookshelf speakers unless they are on stands.
btw, the room is about 10' x 14'
i should also probably warn you, im still deciding whether too spend my money on this, or on something else. i have to decide if its worth it to me.
the ZBM4 looks decent, but how much power can it handle? is it enough to reach a decent volume at 3' - 6'? also with the room its in, it would probably need the port in the front...(space limitations)
so maybe a full range, maybe a two-way. preferably ones that can stand alone, but eventually have a sub added, or start with a sub if cheap enough. i'd also like it too be able to work with my current amp. I'm not against what you suggested, just as long as the price, size, and looks are decent.
if i do build a sub, i was thinking about this 8" dayton sub http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-480 with the amp sreten suggested. its too early to say for sure, but my guess is about 1.5 cu ft tuned to 27.(about what winisd suggests).
as far as larger floorstanders and looks, i don't like wide enclosures. as zaph called them, monkey coffins. for looks as well as space limitations in my room. i'd also prefer the tweeter, if there is one, to be at ear level.
you could be right though, maybe i should just buy some. like some cheaper satellites, mount them in the corners of the ceiling, and build a sub. this may not sound so good for music though. i'd like it too be clear sound.
i apologize for the choppiness and poor spelling of this post, but i had alot to squeeze in here. i hope i've cleared some things up, and as always thanks for the help.
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