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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 12th August 2008, 06:47 PM   #11
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ok thx alot for getting back to me, i really didn't expect that . anyway, you may have a point. what i guess im looking for is something cheap that can be loud if necessary. i basically want more clarity than a cheap paper cone. like i said earlier, i listen to modern rock and alternative, so bass is still important to me. id still like that subwoofer thump.

the problem i was running into with the extended range drivers was the low wattage. the other problem, is usually in diy audio the cabinets are huge. so i'd like it to be somewhat good looking if not small.

what about a tall thin floorstanding cabinet with one of the TB's you suggested? are those last ones any good (ok, ok, i dont mean to be a freak, but the 90watts did catch my eye )? maybe those ported, with a sub?

btw Thanks ALOT for the help. If this was OCN you would be getting massive rep!...lol
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Old 12th August 2008, 06:54 PM   #12
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k i missed the MTM post.

basically i dont like the big ugly loudspeaker cabinets. maybe im just weird. anyway for me, midbass isn't as important as low bass and treble. also remember my amp doesnt have so great of a bass boost function. it sounds kindof, um i guess muddy.

oh yea and thx for clearing up the tweeter stuff. i guess that makes sense.
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Old 12th August 2008, 11:28 PM   #13
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The Tang Band have their own little quirks but the are generally regarded as a good speaker.

In this example, we are referring to the -

Tang Band W4-656SC 4" Shielded Driver @ $26.85
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=264-820

It's nice, and I'm sure appeals to you because of its 45 watts RMS/90 watts max power rating. But, while adequate, it is slightly weak on the high end. But again, it is probably sufficient.

Another possibility is the Dayton Reference 4" full range -

Dayton RS100S-8 4" Reference Shielded Full-Range @ $26.83
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=295-358

Aluminum cone and aluminum dome woofer. Rated down to 83hz and up to 20khz, and it really does go solidly in both directions. It does have a slight peak around 15khz, but other than that it look reasonably good.

But, here is what I think you will find the drawback - Power handling: 30 watts RMS/45 watts max.

The Dayton is the better driver, but less power. However, if you could stretch it, you might be able to create an MM design, using two in one very small cabinet. The Vas is 0.7 cu.ft. Try modeling both one and two speaker version in Win ISD and see how it looks.

Two speakers per cabinet stretches your budget, but if it has the bass, and you can tweak the high end peak, it should be a pretty sweet system.

You are up against, the great dilemma of speaker building, one that we all go through...which speaker to use. No matter which one we pick, there is ALWAYS something wrong or something better for a little more money. At some point, you just have to lock it in and go.

Keep searching, and eventually you will stumble across the combination that works for you.

Also, don't discount the MTM kits. The cabinets on the smallest of those ($169) is only 20" x 8" x 13" with solid response down to 45hz. That's bigger than a tiny bookshelf, but it is barely a mini-tower.

Big boxes and big speakers move Big Air, and that is a good thing.

You add a Sub to these at a later date and you will have one killer system.

Their smallest kit is a 6.5" 2-way in 14"h x 8.5"w x 11'd cabinets. Again using all Dayton components and costing $ 140/pair including the cabinets in black, cherry, or maple.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=300-640

There is a construction plan published for these speakers which included crossover designs, so you could just buy the raw speakers and the crossover components, and make your own boxes. That should cut the cost down.

If you are frustrated by all the confusion and options, welcome to the club. That's how we all feel at this stage of the game.

Steve/bluewizard
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Old 13th August 2008, 12:09 AM   #14
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cool, thx once again. ok so maybe i was wrong. i guess my power gauging was off. i checked the amp again and it's 120watts TOTAL pwr. as in that is its power usage. so 50watts total will work. somehow i should've known... lol serves me right. also i should mention its load range is 6-16 ohms. do you think the dayton can really reach 20khz? i think it was on PE the reviews said it wasnt good for full range...but who knows if thats credible.

i'll check out the dayton and the tang bands in winisd.

Is there a difference in the sound quality of aluminum compared to paper?

as always thanks alot for all the input.
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Old 13th August 2008, 04:18 AM   #15
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This is what the graph looks like. the tang bands will roll off at about 100hz in a small enclosure, they'll probably need a sub. the lowest they can go is about 50hz in a enclosure about the size of the dayton vented.

The dayton will roll off at about the same place when sealed in a slightly larger enclosure. the dayton in the vented enclosure is 0.727 cu ft. my idea was that it would be slim floorstanding. 5.75 W x 8.625 D x 43in T. that wouldn't necessarily need a sub.

Click the image to open in full size.

fixed picture
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Old 13th August 2008, 06:18 AM   #16
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Do I think the Daytons will go to 20khz, yes, ... sort of.

Here is a link to the technical datasheet on this speaker. Look at the frequency response graph. Yo may need to enlarge it to get a good view.

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-358s.pdf

It does continue on to +20khz, but it as a peak at 13khz or 14khz. That could be dealt with using a simple notch filter, or so I'm assuming.

You may or may not even notice that bright spot at 13khz.

Here is my plot for the RS100S-8 single speaker in a 0.40Cu.Ft. Cabinet with dimensions of 7.25"w x 8"d x 11.92"h with 1.5" port 4.67" deep, tuned to 45hz.

Click the image to open in full size.

Response down to 39hz at -3db. Deviation from flat +2db and -1db.

I've shrunk the cabinet to make it more bookshelf size, but your slim tower might work too.

For about 0.73 cu.ft., the inside dimensions would be closer to -

5.75"w x 8.625"d x 25.45"h

Using your cabinet volume, I got the best tuning around 40hz with a 2" dia x 5.64" deep port. That takes it down to about 36hz.

Others may want to check the details on this. I've just started using WinISD and there are a lot of things I don't understand.

Steve/bluewizard
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Old 13th August 2008, 06:42 PM   #17
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Hmmm.......

A driver with 1.4L Vas in an 11L vented cabinet ...........

no BSC .....

A horrible bass alignment ...

36Hz from a 3" driver ? ......

Somebody needs to think about the "advice" they are giving.


/sreten.
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Old 13th August 2008, 09:09 PM   #18
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whats BSC? its 4" btw not that that makes too much difference. I'd be happy to hear your ideas too...

i guess i could always use my 8" paper cone woofers that i have, no specs though. i could buy a plate amp for them. they're from a loudspeaker, so they are in an enclosure approx. 1 cu ft ea. tuned to approx. 36hz. i could put them isobarik, and assuming that really does half the Vas, put them in a .5 cu ft box tuned the same. use the plate amp xover. that might be overkill though, they're each rated at like 160watts max. about 4 ohm.

the 4'' tang bands look good, except for the drop off at 15k or so. seems pointless to get that close and have to use a tweeter anyway.*shrug*

what about a 3''? the power handling seems to be lower though.

the 4 ohm version of the dayton rolls off nicely in a smaller size box. still has the peak at 13k, but at least it reaches 20khz. the 4 ohm would also allow for a notch filter, and still end up with a decent resistance.
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Old 14th August 2008, 12:26 AM   #19
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Sreten,

Offer a true budget alternative.

It's easy to say we are wrong, but it's not productive unless you counter with what is right.

The guy is on a budget, a very lean budget. It seems, I presume, that when the basic crossover was added in and the original speakers were added up, the price was pushing the limit.

I tried to offer alternatives. Any alleged full-range speaker is going to be flawed. It is the nature of the beast. But none the less, you hook them up, put on a CD, and music comes out, rather pleasant sounding music. Is it perfect, no. Does it work, yes.

The Dayton 4" full range is a possibility. But like every conceivable possibility, it is a compromise. The question is, is it a compromise the original poster can live with?

Also, you haven't been reading too closely. The Dayton as far as I know has a Vas of about 0.73 Cubic Feet or about 20 liters.

I reduced that cabinet to 0.40 Cubic Feet or about 11 liters because the guy doesn't like big cabinets. I wanted to see how low the volume could reasonably go. My F3 according to WinISD was about 40hz.

The original poster used 20 liters and got response modeled down to about 36hz. Both cabinets with 'do-able' ports.

Your suggestions of the ZBM4 were good. But I suspect that would be pushing the top of the budget at $40 each when the webpage was made. The current cost would need to be verified.

Also, the Zaph BAMTM is also a good choice, but the budget is up there and the cabinets are big.

Even I tried to steer him toward nice MTM systems, and even MT systems, but he seems resistant.

So, I'm looking for things that fit his budget and mindset.

We are looking for possible ways to solve the problem within the context presented.

I mean if we really want to go the cheap route, Parts Express has some ready-made Pioneers ranging from $30 for a pair of complete factory-made 5.25" 2-way, $50 for a pair of 6.5" 2-way, and $76 for a pair of 8" 3-way.

MTX has similar factory made 5.25" 2-way systems for $60 a pair, and a nice factory made MTM system for $200 a pair; and several other small and similar speakers.

But is the ultimate goal to have speakers, or to make speakers; at the moment it seems to be 'make speakers'.

I'm trying to point this person to every possible solution within the context he's laid out. If he changes the context, then I'll made other recommendations.

So, to what I assume is your central point, yes, any single full-range raw speaker is going to be flawed to some degree, as is virtually any design he could make or consider. The question is, is it sufficient to matter in this context?

Steve/bluewizard
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Old 14th August 2008, 05:04 AM   #20
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i guess i haven't been giving you specifics. i've also been waffling quite a bit so im sorry ill try to clear this up.

first of all, budget. i wouldn't like to spend too much on this. i don't think i could force myself to spend more than $200 total, so i guess that will be the ceiling. ideally it would be about $100 (less would be cool too ). whether this is realistic, im not sure, thus the higher limit.

second, space. where i have my current ones allows for about 10.75" tall and about 7" deep. width is only limited by looks. there is one on a bookshelf, one on a desk. this may not be optimal, in fact there is no real good place to sit in between these. i would be willing to re-arange though so i could listen on the couch. other than these places, there are few places to put small bookshelf speakers unless they are on stands.

btw, the room is about 10' x 14'

i should also probably warn you, im still deciding whether too spend my money on this, or on something else. i have to decide if its worth it to me.

the ZBM4 looks decent, but how much power can it handle? is it enough to reach a decent volume at 3' - 6'? also with the room its in, it would probably need the port in the front...(space limitations)

so maybe a full range, maybe a two-way. preferably ones that can stand alone, but eventually have a sub added, or start with a sub if cheap enough. i'd also like it too be able to work with my current amp. I'm not against what you suggested, just as long as the price, size, and looks are decent.

if i do build a sub, i was thinking about this 8" dayton sub http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=295-480 with the amp sreten suggested. its too early to say for sure, but my guess is about 1.5 cu ft tuned to 27.(about what winisd suggests).

as far as larger floorstanders and looks, i don't like wide enclosures. as zaph called them, monkey coffins. for looks as well as space limitations in my room. i'd also prefer the tweeter, if there is one, to be at ear level.

you could be right though, maybe i should just buy some. like some cheaper satellites, mount them in the corners of the ceiling, and build a sub. this may not sound so good for music though. i'd like it too be clear sound.

i apologize for the choppiness and poor spelling of this post, but i had alot to squeeze in here. i hope i've cleared some things up, and as always thanks for the help.
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