What full-ranges offer most midbass punch?

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Guys,

I'm looking for plans to build a set of full range speakers that excel in the mid-bass area. Something that will really deliver some serious kick to the chest.

Budget is about $800.

Maybe something with a pair of 12's on either side?

99% Home Theater. I always watch at or slightly above reference level (75db).

My current subwoofer is an 18" in a ported enclosure tuned to about 15hz and I'd like to keep that crossed over very low.

I ran a search on this forum, but all the threads I found were talking about individual drivers, rather than complete plans. So maybe I'm expecting the wrong thing from this forum? But any advice is appreciated.

PartsExpress has plans on their site. The "Magna Cum Laude" plans are within my budget and at least appear to meet my needs?

I've read a few threads on it here at diyaudio, but don't see any mention of midbass performance. And the 12" subs used are out of stock at partsexpress.

http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/magna/index.cfm
 
I know you asked for full range, BUT . ..

for midbass punch, it's REALLY hard to beat a properly implemented 15 inch Karlson setup . . . I have a pair stuffed with Altec 418's (yup - guitar speakers) and they have ridiculous punch . . I've had as much as 400 W RMS going to them . . the more power the better :)

I think they do funky things above 200 / 250 Hz, so I cross them over around there with an active x-over, and the upper frequencies are handled by some DIY open baffle line arrays . . .
 
I'm definately open to implementation. Something like an MTM paired with a seperate midbass unit would be fun, and allow me to duplicate a center and rear satellites.


I did a quick search on Karlson and everything so far is turning up dead links. I'll search some more after I eat my dinner. Thanks! :)
 
bottom_feeder said:
I know you asked for full range, BUT . ..

for midbass punch, it's REALLY hard to beat a properly implemented 15 inch Karlson setup . . . I have a pair stuffed with Altec 417's (yup - guitar speakers) and they have ridiculous punch . . I've had as much as 400 W RMS going to them . . the more power the better :)

I think they do funky things above 200 / 250 Hz, so I cross them over around there with an active x-over, and the upper frequencies are handled by some DIY open baffle line arrays . . .

Those Karlson's do have a lot of "kick" and would make a great mid-woofer complement for some OB Visiton B200s or Tone Tubby 8 inch ceramic mids with a super tweeter of some sort (or not!).
This could be a fun project.

Best Regards,
TerryO
 
TerryO said:


Those Karlson's do have a lot of "kick" and would make a great mid-woofer complement for some OB Visiton B200s or Tone Tubby 8 inch ceramic mids with a super tweeter of some sort (or not!).
This could be a fun project.

Best Regards,
TerryO

yup . . . I definitely agree . . . . my only issue (if you really wanna call it that) is the Altec's I'm using are about 100 db efficient, so they practically require something as efficient as line arrays (8 drivers per side) to match up well with them. I use vintage KLH 4.5 inch fullrange drivers in the line arrays, and for a super tweeter I use a pair of the old Radio Shack / Lineaum Dipole Ribbon tweeters.

CZ - I think you're on the right track . . . doing an MTM arrangement, but relieving them of the sub-250 Hz midbass duties would really open your option up for drivers . . . you could also consider doing Karlsons with 12 inchers - cabinets would be a little more managable. My Altec-stuffed Karlson's are huge and must weigh 70 pounds a piece :dead:
 
Wow, the Karlson is a funky looking speaker enclosure.

From my little research, it seems the "K15" is something that could work for me in an MTM/Midbass combo?
But I can't tell for sure. Is the K15 a full-range intended enclosure with some weird midrange/tweeter tube or is that just the X15?

Also, I have not been able to find any plans for the K15 enclosure.

I found a couple of drawings, but nothing that would make me confident in being able to build one of these enclosures.

There are tons of plans available for various MTM's, so that shouldn't be difficult.
 
I have a link somewhewre to some plans . . . I lucked out with mine, as a a friend got them for free stuffed with some EV woofers . . he kept the woofers and gave the cabinets to me, since they needed a little work (new wings & braces) :D

I'm pretty sure mine were built in the late 50's / early 60's

check out this thread on the Karlson forum for more incentive ;)

http://gainclone.com/Karlson/index.php?action=search2
 
CZ Eddie said:
Wow, the Karlson is a funky looking speaker enclosure.

From my little research, it seems the "K15" is something that could work for me in an MTM/Midbass combo?
But I can't tell for sure. Is the K15 a full-range intended enclosure with some weird midrange/tweeter tube or is that just the X15?

Also, I have not been able to find any plans for the K15 enclosure.

I found a couple of drawings, but nothing that would make me confident in being able to build one of these enclosures.

There are tons of plans available for various MTM's, so that shouldn't be difficult.

Originally, they did market it as a 'silver bullet' of sorts. . . used lots with coaxial EV's / Jensen's / etc . . some (like mine) had a tweeter mounted on the 'shelf', aimed downwards, bouncing the tweeter signal off the woofer cone.

Here on DIY, (and out in the 'internets' :D ) the master of all things Karlson in freddy . . . if you post over on the Karlson forum, I'm sure he'll chime in and give you some pointers.

here's the main link page I was looking for:

http://home.planet.nl/~ulfman/constr.htm

two really good K15 plans here (in metric, but hey, still works)
 
Yeah, that is the drawing I was referring to. :D
Easy to put the big parts together. But it's the whole port area and the smaller parts that are too confusing to figure out, based on that drawing.

A cut list would definately be helpful. Then it's just "connect the dots" from there. :c_flag:

Btw, some of the "approved drivers" for this model enclosure are going for big $ on ebay.
 
CZ Eddie said:
Yeah, that is the drawing I was referring to. :D
Easy to put the big parts together. But it's the whole port area and the smaller parts that are too confusing to figure out, based on that drawing.

A cut list would definately be helpful. Then it's just "connect the dots" from there. :c_flag:

Btw, some of the "approved drivers" for this model enclosure are going for big $ on ebay.

yes . .. those classic speakers do go for serious $ sometimes . . . the important thing to remember is most any high-Q driver will work in these. . . the Altec 'guitar' speakers I use go for about 100 - 200 bucks / pair on ebay, although I traded a Heathkit AA32 tube amp for mine . .. which I got for free :D

think old console woofers (magnaovx / jensen) for bargain drivers, or if you're thinking new, any of these would stomp:

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&CAT_ID=49&ObjectGroup_ID=626

the nice thing about using proaudio / guitar speakers, is most are High Q designed for IB / open back implementations, and they are designed to be abused . .
 
I looked at that link. Turns out the link looks just like a different one that had a poor drawing. Your link brought up a decent looking drawing! Thanks! :)

I'm still waiting for my registration to be approved at the Karlson forum.

First they wanted an eight character password, which 99% of forums do not require. Then they wanted to wait until the admin approves my registration, now there is another delay because of a "security problem".

And to top it all off, they emailed my password to me in an unencrypted form. So any security they were looking for was blown right out the windows. doh!

:smash:
 
The only thing holding me back right now on these Karlsons is trying to fit them with my current towers. If I could do that, then I would go forth and build some MCM's.

I have some Marantz MA500 monoblocks that would probably work well for powering the Karlson enclosures.
But I have no idea the best way to cross them over at 150-250hz while sending the rest to my towers.

I didn't see any active crossovers out there, other than for car audio. Which I could incorporate into this scenario using a DC/AC converter.

But that almost sounds like a waste of money. Surely there are better options out there that will not only let me have a 2/way crossover but also be able to adjust the volume of the Karsons to match with my towers?
 
I've not had any punch yet with fullrange speakers - a fake Druid with the first Eminence B102 had some power handling so could be pushed harder than an 8" with less excursion. P-audio 15" coaxial should be nice in Karlson K15. Theres a $35 Eminence/Fender woofer on Ebay which should work ok. A slotted tube HF waveguide sounds nice with K15 and other couplers. It would be made with a half ellipse slot ~5.3" long and a 1/8" gap so the ellipse pattern would be for 10.6" major axis and (pi* pipe outside diameter)-0.125" minor axis . Altec 604 in K15 sounded better than any fullrange I've heard yet but my FR experience is limited - I don't hold much hope for FR being able to play the transient levels I like with certain material.
 
Freddi,

I have yet been able to post on your Karlson forum. It's been over a week and nobody is letting me in.

If I were to build a Karlson (not sure anymore), I would build it not as a full-range, but only to be a midbass speaker.

Right now, I'm considering just building a pair of ported midbass enclosures using Eminence Kappa LF 15" bass speakers.
 
hmm..........

midbass and punch.

You mean sounds punchy ?
Or a bass drum that hits you viscerally like a real drum ?

punchy sound I got from the pioneer b20 crossed to a piezo time aligned at 5khz.
pleasing 2nd order harmonics and time alignment went a long way.

Now midbass, that 200-80hz region that so many theaters lack (especially home theaters), 1 15" a side worked much better than an 8" 3 way, then 2 x 15" a side worked well at high volumes (1 used with bsc inductor) (crossed to a ev hp640) time aligned 24db/octave/lr crossover. These were eminence gamma 15" costing maybe $80 each. But don't let their 3mm xmax fool you. and I ran subs below them. I think their qtc .707 was near 3ft3 with a f3 of 75hz.

4 x 15" gave impact, like an explosion hitting you. My 4 x 18's sub would shake you, but these did drum impact. Think old stone temple pilots drum stuff. Only thing I had that did better was a w-bin but you had to be > 10' away and there wasn't much below 100hz.

Norman
 
B20 to my ear has quite a bit of distortion but a kinda pretty Hf shimmer from its wizzer lobing. look at this ~ on-axis graph taken in the middle of a room with B20 versus the old Eminence B102, each in a fake Druid pipe (~1.3 cubic foot airspace, floor firing vent) - midrange output as expected was less than B102 but I was surprised to see less LF with B20 - they can be fun on a budget. The fake Druid with apt80 copy or other tweeters was fun on the cheap and B102 could take brief 200W peaks which would knock a B20 out of the gap and into chaos. For drums and bass a 15" Karlson would stomp a 10" driver Druid. A 12" Karlson with something like PYM1298 could be a noise maker to ~75Hz. K12 with Martin Sound's coax is ok - no low bass, clearer sound than my limited pile of "fullrange"

I had B20 in an old EV Interface cabinet with passive radiator and that distorted too - tweeter was 3X KSN1016 on top - looks like B20 could live w/o BSC as this is the middle of a room

B20 vs B103 - same drive in fake Druid pipe
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


Outdoors K15 versus a reflex with similar Fb and volume to the Karlson's rear chamber- driver = Beta15CX two tone distortion 32Hz/160Hz mixed 1:1 - note the reduction in sideband activity with the 15" Karlson
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


besides whatever can happen in a Karlson for excursion vs output theres a psychoacoustic effect of its "reverb" - the upper half of the slot and the starting gap seem to be keys to adjusting the effect - it will not show with real time analyzers.
 
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