Hi all,
Just signed up to this forum and am quite excited about starting a project to build a pair of floor standing, two way, budget priced, tried and tested diy-build speakers. Before reading a few of the permanent threads in this forum I hadn't realised the difficultys presented in matching drivers to crossovers, and my electronic knowledge isn't quite up to the level required to navigate this problem by myself.
So, as was suggested elsewhere here, I should like to begin my first project by copying the dimensions, drivers and crossover design of someone else that has already had success and build my knowledge and proficiency this way. I have looked through HumbleHomemade Hifi's website and Zaph Audio and want to tackle a project similar to one like those. I particularly like the look of the Optimo loudspeaker by Humblehomemade Hifi. To me this speaker looks good, fits my design requirements, and doesn't seem overly technical in construction. However, the links to the drivers websites dont work.
With the above info, can anyone out there please suggest other speakers of similar style that I might consider building? I used to work in a Hifi shop and spent many hours listening to music through speakers including Sonus Faber, B&W, Mission, Royd, Polk, DynAudio, etc. It's been nearly ten years since I relaxed in front of a decent system, but I remember the transparency and detail presented by such quality systems as we sold. I am not a bass junky so dont mind compromising loudness and excessive bass for clarity and detail.
Sorry for the ramble, would really like to hear of any more designs that might suit. Thanks.
Just signed up to this forum and am quite excited about starting a project to build a pair of floor standing, two way, budget priced, tried and tested diy-build speakers. Before reading a few of the permanent threads in this forum I hadn't realised the difficultys presented in matching drivers to crossovers, and my electronic knowledge isn't quite up to the level required to navigate this problem by myself.
So, as was suggested elsewhere here, I should like to begin my first project by copying the dimensions, drivers and crossover design of someone else that has already had success and build my knowledge and proficiency this way. I have looked through HumbleHomemade Hifi's website and Zaph Audio and want to tackle a project similar to one like those. I particularly like the look of the Optimo loudspeaker by Humblehomemade Hifi. To me this speaker looks good, fits my design requirements, and doesn't seem overly technical in construction. However, the links to the drivers websites dont work.
With the above info, can anyone out there please suggest other speakers of similar style that I might consider building? I used to work in a Hifi shop and spent many hours listening to music through speakers including Sonus Faber, B&W, Mission, Royd, Polk, DynAudio, etc. It's been nearly ten years since I relaxed in front of a decent system, but I remember the transparency and detail presented by such quality systems as we sold. I am not a bass junky so dont mind compromising loudness and excessive bass for clarity and detail.
Sorry for the ramble, would really like to hear of any more designs that might suit. Thanks.
The Optimo uses quite expensive drivers, but of course compared to commercial speakers of equal quality, the total cost of the project is relatively cheap..
Troels Gravesen has plenty of nice designs:
TJL2W: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/TJL_2W.htm
Scoperta: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/W15LY001_HDS.htm
Also at HTGuide forums there's some nice designs:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39
E.g. the MTM 2-way NatalieP and Modula MTM (and MT)
Troels Gravesen has plenty of nice designs:
TJL2W: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/TJL_2W.htm
Scoperta: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/W15LY001_HDS.htm
Also at HTGuide forums there's some nice designs:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39
E.g. the MTM 2-way NatalieP and Modula MTM (and MT)
Hi,
The Optimo is a TL with very expensive drivers.
There is no reason why most 2-ways cannot be put into a TL.
Or a MLTL for that matter.
For some reason though the TL/MLTL fans concentrate on full range.
The Seas Thor cabinet design is fairly simple for a TL.
However it appears it is too small for two 6.5" drivers, but good for one.
http://www.seas.no/images/stories/diykits/pdfdataheet/thor_cab.pdf
A lot of 6.5"/1" designs would moreorless work in something similar.
Here you have to balance budget and value for money.
/sreten.
The Optimo is a TL with very expensive drivers.
There is no reason why most 2-ways cannot be put into a TL.
Or a MLTL for that matter.
For some reason though the TL/MLTL fans concentrate on full range.
The Seas Thor cabinet design is fairly simple for a TL.
However it appears it is too small for two 6.5" drivers, but good for one.
http://www.seas.no/images/stories/diykits/pdfdataheet/thor_cab.pdf
A lot of 6.5"/1" designs would moreorless work in something similar.
Here you have to balance budget and value for money.
/sreten.For us Kiwis, unfortunately the best place to ship drivers from is the USA. Shipping has gone up quite a bit. If you went with an MT design like the Optimo - you will probably spend USD$100 on shipping alone. Don't forget customs duty and GST which the former from memory is about 15%, so 27.5% taxes. To make it worse, the shipping is included in the total when determining when GST / duty kicks in - which I think is still NZD$700. We really get hammered importing stuff.
www.speakerbug.com.au has a good range of reasonably priced Jantzen crossover parts. Although - it's probably best you order all at once from the likes of a USA distributor.
Check out www.madisound.com I've used them 3 / 4 times, always reliable and no damage in transit.
Cheers,
David.
www.speakerbug.com.au has a good range of reasonably priced Jantzen crossover parts. Although - it's probably best you order all at once from the likes of a USA distributor.
Check out www.madisound.com I've used them 3 / 4 times, always reliable and no damage in transit.
Cheers,
David.
Thanks for the replies. Dont have enough time this morning to look at the sites suggested in detail, but last night I did some more searching and found this website detailing the construction of some MTM TL speakers. This particular speaker uses very cheap drivers, but after searching on Google, it seems everyone that has made a pair is very satisfied with their results. Does anyone here have any experience or can comment on these speakers?
Anyway, at the moment I am leaning toward those speakers, but will look at the links you have all posted when I come home from work tonight before commiting to a design.
Thanks again.
Anyway, at the moment I am leaning toward those speakers, but will look at the links you have all posted when I come home from work tonight before commiting to a design.
Thanks again.
Johnnz said:
Hi,
Quote regarding the Dayton 6" drivers (from Zaphaudio.com) :
"Comments:
This woofer does not perform very well, with horrible tall order
harmonic distortion right smack in the midrange. The response
curve between 1 and 2kHz is pretty rough also. Bass response is
deep for a reasonable size enclosure, but there's not a whole lot of
reason to pick this driver over some of the other under $20 woofers.
Tested December 2006."
In other words you can do better for not much more.
Take a look at MJK's : http://www.quarter-wave.com/TLs/Alignment_Tables.pdf
The type of TL you are considering is to control the bass response
rather than extend it, these sort of alignments are more predictable
and less risky, and can be modelled from tables.
A better MTM is http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM.html
MTM only go louder, not deeper than MT's, and are twice the volume.
for MT's you are spoilt for choice :
A good budget speaker : http://www.geocities.com/woove99/Spkrbldg/RS180_2way/RS180_2way.htm
TLing this or Zaphs should not be much of a problem.
/sreten.Took a look at the other designs suggested and seems that the dB616TL is still by far the cheapest (and possibly best value for me - especially given extra taxes that kick in on imports over about NZ$400). I am wondering though whether there is any advantage to use shielded drivers since I have an LCD tv not CRT? Non shielded is lighter therefore even cheaper to ship here.
I know that something this cheap is not likely to be incredibly good sounding but the price to result relationship promises to be pretty decent and should be a good learning curve.
I'll post again when I make a final decision...
I know that something this cheap is not likely to be incredibly good sounding but the price to result relationship promises to be pretty decent and should be a good learning curve.
I'll post again when I make a final decision...
Hi Sreten,
Thanks for the tips. I am very tempted to purchase better drivers than the ones recommended for the dB616TL speakers. If I could make an MT TL speaker from this link you provided I think I would be a lot happier to build my speakers. Not only are these drivers rated even better, but they look better too
So, for the time I will be putting in to building I should like to use better quality drivers for sure.
The thing is that I am very keen to make a TL enclosure (floor standing) and I am not sure how to go about designing such an enclosure for the drivers and crossover in the above link. Indeed, can I even use the same crossover design if I am going to change the enclosure to be TL?? I am quite baffled (no pun intended ) by the 41 pages found in the last link you gave me. I am not incapable of learning though but need a bit of guidance to get me on my way.
Hope that you or others can help me redesign the project in the link to suit my requirements. Thanks
Thanks for the tips. I am very tempted to purchase better drivers than the ones recommended for the dB616TL speakers. If I could make an MT TL speaker from this link you provided I think I would be a lot happier to build my speakers. Not only are these drivers rated even better, but they look better too
So, for the time I will be putting in to building I should like to use better quality drivers for sure.
The thing is that I am very keen to make a TL enclosure (floor standing) and I am not sure how to go about designing such an enclosure for the drivers and crossover in the above link. Indeed, can I even use the same crossover design if I am going to change the enclosure to be TL?? I am quite baffled (no pun intended
) by the 41 pages found in the last link you gave me. I am not incapable of learning though but need a bit of guidance to get me on my way. Hope that you or others can help me redesign the project in the link to suit my requirements. Thanks
oh, another bit of criticism I read online about the db616TL is that it is possibly not a good idea to have two bass drivers at different points (out of phase) along the Transmission line tunnel. Does this sound like a good point? If so, I should be better off with one good bass driver and one good tweeter, as I just posted I guess.
Johnnz said:
One or two Dayton paper drivers are not really impressive. Go with the RS180 you will be much happier. Just look at Zaph's test and see for your self. For all the time and effort you will put into this, also could consider the SR-71 design with the Seas ER-18. Jay also has a version of this as well.
As for TL enclosures, it's a highly debated subject. I was originally interested in them as well but the difficulty involved in the prediction/modeling makes it too much voodoo like... at least for my taste. According to something I read somewhere a while ago (don't ask me where, I don't remember) that a TL behaves a little like a vented enclosure that has been tuned lower and leaner then a conventional vented box would be. Since vented boxes (regardless of tuning frequency and driver) can be easily modeled and predicted, I personally feel more comfortable with a vented enclosure.
Peter
This design also looks interesting!
Johnnz said:
Up to a point they will sum as a single oblong driver with its acoustic center at midpoint, so typical MTMs are OK since the stuffing will damp any higher frequency standing waves, though better overall to put them as close as practical with the tweeter offset to the side between them.
GM
Johnnz said:
Hi,
The short answer to that is it is probably not a good starting point.
Try :
http://www.rjbaudio.com/RS180MTM/rs180-rs28-mtm.html
Note that the 2.5way version is not the way to do it.
Jay_WJ might be interested in a MTM / MMT version of his design.
There would be no harm in politely enquiring.
/sreten.Thanks for that. That Dr. K MTM does look pretty good. Beneficial too to order all drivers from the same company for shipping (as long as I don't get stung on import taxes by crossing the total value threshold...).
Now, what do you think my chances of getting a good sounding speaker are if I try converting this Dr K. MTM driver combo and suitable crossover (a few varieties in the last link Sreten gave me), into a Transmission Line speaker? I understand that bass may not be as lound or punchy but I dont mind that too much (and, living in a unit without concrete divider wall, I dont think the neighbours would mind too much either. ). I am just so curious to hear a quarter wave design and make a floorstander that makes functional use of all the wood supporting it (as opposed to just holding up the required volume enclosure of a sealed cabinet). Should I go for it, or is the consensus that it will be a project destined for disapointments?
I am keen to use a dual bass driver design (MTM) since these speakers will be the living room (15.5 feet wide, by 10 feet high, by 32 foot long) to get more volume.
Now, what do you think my chances of getting a good sounding speaker are if I try converting this Dr K. MTM driver combo and suitable crossover (a few varieties in the last link Sreten gave me), into a Transmission Line speaker? I understand that bass may not be as lound or punchy but I dont mind that too much (and, living in a unit without concrete divider wall, I dont think the neighbours would mind too much either
. ). I am just so curious to hear a quarter wave design and make a floorstander that makes functional use of all the wood supporting it (as opposed to just holding up the required volume enclosure of a sealed cabinet). Should I go for it, or is the consensus that it will be a project destined for disapointments?I am keen to use a dual bass driver design (MTM) since these speakers will be the living room (15.5 feet wide, by 10 feet high, by 32 foot long) to get more volume.
Hi,
Quoting from MJK's paper :
"Using just the alignment tables, a tapered transmission line enclosure
appears to be the design with the highest potential for success.
Using the alignment tables to produce an expanding transmission
line or TQWT design appears to be a very high risk design option."
So basically the less you are trying to increase bass the easier it is.
It is a series of trade off's, see the Seas Thor thread where an
innapropriate TL dimensioning (not enough area) killed bass.
The parameters of the Seas driver in the Thor and RS180 are near identical :
Vas 19L/20L, Qts 0.37/0.39, Fs 38Hz/40Hz.
So read up on the Thor.
/sreten.
Quoting from MJK's paper :
"Using just the alignment tables, a tapered transmission line enclosure
appears to be the design with the highest potential for success.
Using the alignment tables to produce an expanding transmission
line or TQWT design appears to be a very high risk design option."
So basically the less you are trying to increase bass the easier it is.
It is a series of trade off's, see the Seas Thor thread where an
innapropriate TL dimensioning (not enough area) killed bass.
The parameters of the Seas driver in the Thor and RS180 are near identical :
Vas 19L/20L, Qts 0.37/0.39, Fs 38Hz/40Hz.
So read up on the Thor.
/sreten.
Mixture of that & other things really. The more I read that Thor article, the more I wonder what on Earth was going on. Aside from chucking out a third of the volume recommended by the Augspurger tables nominally used in the design, it appears to use ~the straight-line length for a tapered line. Kind of negates the point of using them, n'est-ce pas? 
Anyway, if a cheap, tried & tested 2 way is wanted, I'd probably build the floorstanding version of Zaph's Bargin MTM -it's a known quantity & you can be confident it'll perform well.
Anyway, if a cheap, tried & tested 2 way is wanted, I'd probably build the floorstanding version of Zaph's Bargin MTM -it's a known quantity & you can be confident it'll perform well.
Yeah, I know. I was the one who did most of the pointing out of Thor's many issues over the course of two threads.
Anyway, FWIW, Zaph will probably be after our blood, but yes, a TL version of the floorstanding BMTM is very much on the cards (I was designing one as you posted), providing the cabinet width is maintained as per the original cabinet. A 'pure' Augspurger based 4:1 taper design gives a 58in line, throat CSA = 75in^2, terminus CSA 18.75in^2. Damp 0.84lbs ft^3 of dacron or similar & you get the first response attached. Alternatively, you can go with a longer 86.5in line, same throat & terminus CSAs for a lower & more damped tuning. 2nd FR is for that, with a 0.65lb ft^3 damping; 3rd is the same box, with damping reduced to 0.5lbs ft^3 to get a little more gain at the price of a theoretically inaudible increase in ripple.
Cheers
Scott
Anyway, FWIW, Zaph will probably be after our blood, but yes, a TL version of the floorstanding BMTM is very much on the cards (I was designing one as you posted), providing the cabinet width is maintained as per the original cabinet. A 'pure' Augspurger based 4:1 taper design gives a 58in line, throat CSA = 75in^2, terminus CSA 18.75in^2. Damp 0.84lbs ft^3 of dacron or similar & you get the first response attached. Alternatively, you can go with a longer 86.5in line, same throat & terminus CSAs for a lower & more damped tuning. 2nd FR is for that, with a 0.65lb ft^3 damping; 3rd is the same box, with damping reduced to 0.5lbs ft^3 to get a little more gain at the price of a theoretically inaudible increase in ripple.
Cheers
Scott
Attachments
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.