pjpoes said:
A lot of words, that may lead some people to the belief that this is so, but.....everyone can read about that topic in good books. Only so much: The probably best studio monitors in the world are active (and German
): Look for the MEG RL901 or
K+H O500C
pjpoes said:
It's polite to honor someone for his scientific reputation, but gedlee is not the only one with a PhD here in the forum....some may be even a Dr.-Ing. (<-- that's German, too)
Actually I brought some MDF with me when moving to the States. It's a lot more dense. Bought it at OBI in Germany which is similar to Home Depot. You even can get different qualities in Germany. I can't imagine that it's any other over here?
No still have it.
No, these are all screws I found in your package:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I asked the guy at Home Depot for the best water based acrylic paint they have. This was his recommendation. He also said that there's no latex in it. But if this is the case I would never want to use it. What acrylic lacquer would you (and the others) recommend? It should give good results when applied with a roller.
Measured mine with a micrometer as well. Again, in Germany there's no variation in thickness. Either you buy 19 mm or 21 mm. These are simply differnet types.
Yes, one box. Some boards got damaged because you just put them loosely in the box, e.g.:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Would you call this a variation?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The picture was taken AFTER I straightened the inner board of the baffle. Now the top and side boards line up nicely to the front. But the side parts are simply 3 mm to low!
That is an option I would definitely recommend to unexperienced hobbyists.
Sorry, but you compressed the image too much for any details to be visible.
I was not talking about 0.5 mm but 2 mm. And it's not the cut (except for the side parts) but how the two boards forming the front baffle were glued together.
Best, Markus
The fit on the top is due to two things. First you need to push up the side board so that it fits snuggly into the dado - thats not done. Second the side panels are not routed and as I said, there will be an overhang on the sides - you have to sand this off to a smooth round corner.
I didn't buy the MDF in Germany - here I have only seen one kind.
I must have forgotten the smaller screws - sorry about that.
Marcus, you made no qualms about being "in a hurray" and as such I raced to get yours out first. There are going to be some glitchs that will get fixed down the road. Had I known that you were going to trash the kit I would not have made the extra effort to get your kits to you first. Lets wait and see what others say before jumping to conclusions.
Someone who is not competent at assembling hand-cut wooden enclosures should not buy this kit, to that I would agree. But anyone who has even the slightest experience with building a box will have no trouble accomodating the kind of things that you are complaining about. I'm not making excuses here and as time goes on the parts will get better, they are already better, but being the first means that you see all the startup problems.
You have to remember that this whole project started less than four moths ago. To go from concept to shipping, single handedly, in four months is no small feat. There will be growing pains.
If you are so displeased then send it back and I'll refund your money.
Here is a pic as good as I can get with my camera.
I didn't buy the MDF in Germany - here I have only seen one kind.
I must have forgotten the smaller screws - sorry about that.
Marcus, you made no qualms about being "in a hurray" and as such I raced to get yours out first. There are going to be some glitchs that will get fixed down the road. Had I known that you were going to trash the kit I would not have made the extra effort to get your kits to you first. Lets wait and see what others say before jumping to conclusions.
Someone who is not competent at assembling hand-cut wooden enclosures should not buy this kit, to that I would agree. But anyone who has even the slightest experience with building a box will have no trouble accomodating the kind of things that you are complaining about. I'm not making excuses here and as time goes on the parts will get better, they are already better, but being the first means that you see all the startup problems.
You have to remember that this whole project started less than four moths ago. To go from concept to shipping, single handedly, in four months is no small feat. There will be growing pains.
If you are so displeased then send it back and I'll refund your money.
Here is a pic as good as I can get with my camera.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Earl,
It seems like mating the baffle roundover to the rounded edge on the top panel is a lot of work for what is IMO most likely only aesthetic benefit. The real acoustic benefit is the roundover on the baffle edges.
My suggestion would be to eliminate the the roundover on the top cabinet panel so that the amount of work the user has to do to assemble the cabinets is much less. Which also means less chance of someone screwing up the front baffle and waveguide which is really the expensive/critical part of the cabinet anyway.
Kind regards,
Dennis
It seems like mating the baffle roundover to the rounded edge on the top panel is a lot of work for what is IMO most likely only aesthetic benefit. The real acoustic benefit is the roundover on the baffle edges.
My suggestion would be to eliminate the the roundover on the top cabinet panel so that the amount of work the user has to do to assemble the cabinets is much less. Which also means less chance of someone screwing up the front baffle and waveguide which is really the expensive/critical part of the cabinet anyway.
Kind regards,
Dennis
Dennis
The top edge is less critical for diffraction, but I still think it important. And yes, it is the hardest edge to get right, but its still no problem to get right as my photo shows. As I said we need to see what other builders think as Marcus seems to be pretty picky.
You will notice from my photo that the rounded edge DOES have to be sanded down into the side panels. This is to be expected. Sanding this by hand may be somewhat tedious, but with an inexpensive sander it only takes about a minute to get right once everything is glued together.
The top edge is less critical for diffraction, but I still think it important. And yes, it is the hardest edge to get right, but its still no problem to get right as my photo shows. As I said we need to see what other builders think as Marcus seems to be pretty picky.
You will notice from my photo that the rounded edge DOES have to be sanded down into the side panels. This is to be expected. Sanding this by hand may be somewhat tedious, but with an inexpensive sander it only takes about a minute to get right once everything is glued together.
Agreed, it seems like it would be much easier to crank these out without roundovers at all and then let the end user add a roundover if they desire.
*EDIT: Just saw Dr. Geddes response that the front baffle roundover is important, nevermind.
I'd even be fine with just getting the front baffle and a simple cut sheet for the other parts. That would save on labor and shipping for Dr. Geddes. Is this possible?
*EDIT: Just saw Dr. Geddes response that the front baffle roundover is important, nevermind.
I'd even be fine with just getting the front baffle and a simple cut sheet for the other parts. That would save on labor and shipping for Dr. Geddes. Is this possible?
Yes, this is an option, but it requires a table saw and thats not a common piece of equipment. The baffle rounover is extremely important and it should be as large as practical. A 1" router bit is just about as large as feasible and so this is what I use. If anyone wants their kits without a radius on the baflle then thats fine, but it should be radiused when completed. The tool to do this is also not typical (a 1/2" router and 1" radius bit). But if you have those tools then by all means order the kit without the radiuses and then put them on after assembly.
However, once again I'll say that I have built four of these enclosures and I have no trouble with the edges at all. I prefer a very loose fit enclosure as it is far easier to fill gaps than correct something that is too tight. It is best to have a palm sander for this, but that's a very inexpensive piece of equipment - unlike a table saw and router.
However, once again I'll say that I have built four of these enclosures and I have no trouble with the edges at all. I prefer a very loose fit enclosure as it is far easier to fill gaps than correct something that is too tight. It is best to have a palm sander for this, but that's a very inexpensive piece of equipment - unlike a table saw and router.
gedlee said:
What happens when you push the sides to the top? The base will be not straight on the base sides...
Does the base of the enclosure need to be rounded too because of acoustical reasons?
But the overhang varies just too much because of the two boards that form the baffle not being glued straight. So the enclosure itself won't be straight. One would see that clearly when the speaker is finished.
Sorry for being off topic, but I don't understand why every American insists on writing Markus with a "c". My name is spelled with a "k". Just out of politeness I always try to spell someones name right.
I thought I said thank you in one or two of me emails, but to make it official: "Thank you!"
Beside of that, someone being in a hurry shouldn't lead to ship a product with flaws?
This is YOUR conclusion not mine. Never did I trash the kit. I'm just reporting (hopefully in an objective manner) what MY kit looks like and what it takes to assemble the Nathan 10. But conclusions will follow when the Nathan is finished and measured.
Would appreciate if you find the time to answer my last postings questions.
Best, Markus
markus76 said:
The first thing you need to do when finishing MDF is determine how smooth you want it. Since you mentioned applying it with a roller, I'm assuming you are ok with somewhat of an orange peel texture. That means you don't need your surface as perfect, but preparation is still the key. The on the cabinet you first need to get it sealed fully so that the seams won't be seen again. This is one of the most tedious parts of finishing. I'd fill any large gaps with Marglass or Glasslite, the body filler with tiny fiberglass fibers in it. You can get this at any auto body store. Bondo has one that you can get at Walmart even. A standard auto body filler will crack over time. You need the strength of the fibers to keep seams from coming back. Then sand it as good as you can with 80-120grit. No need to get perfect at this point. Use a board file, straight line sander, or a 12" long sanding block if you have to do it by hand. The key is keeping the flat surfaces flat. Blow everything off well.
Then you'll want to use a sanding sealer to fully seal up the entire surface of the mdf. You need it to be air tight to keep moisture out, or your seams will swell down the road. Also expect the MDF to soak up the material and swell on the end grain with this first applicaiton. Let it fully dry and then come back with an auto body spot filler to fill in any tiny cracks. It will go over the sanding sealer quite well, and once the mdf is sealed it won't shrink nearly as much as if you had done it on raw MDF. Let the spot putty dry, then sand the seams smooth again. At this point the end grain should be sealed up/impregnated with the sanding sealer and won't swell with the next applicaiton. You can use regular polyurethane for this step if you want as well, but it will take longer and not sand as easily. I'd go with 2 more coats of polyurethane over the top, sanding between. If you notice any tiny cracks or pits or holes, come back with the spot filler at any time. Once this is all done, your cabinet is sealed up well, you can scuff it with a scotch brite pad and paint over the top of it.
Another great option is DuraTex. http://www.acrytech.com/store.asp?pid=14119 It's self priming, seals up cracks well, and you can choose a variety of methods for putting it on. It's high build so hides cracks and imperfections well and sands easily with 220grit. Don't go with a larger grit as it will peel and gum up the paper. 220 seems the fastest and gives the best results.
It is hard to keep kits from getting damaged as shipping companies do drop things a lot. We used to do 2" eps foam around the whole outside of the box, then pack the pieces. We'd shrink wrap the pieces, then cut the eps foam to pack tight and take up any space in the box. It would literally take an hour or more to package up one kit and about $10 in EPS to make sure everything is held tightly in place.
I guess of more concern in this picture than the damage is the inconsistency of how the edges are routered. You can sand out that little line, but it won't change that the whole roundover is deeper in points. The depth of the cut is clearly not consistent. I think the point in offering a kit is because you are giving the customer something that is better made than they could have done on their own. I would expect that as a large amount of DIYers have a lot of woodworking experience, they could easily manage work of this caliber on their own. If you don't have a router table, which is the easiest way to do the edges, make a simple router edge guide. http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/etip063000ws.html
This will allow you to adjust the router to the right position and also will help you hold the router flatter when making the cuts. You'll have a consistent cut and not have to worry about the router bouncing at the end of the panels.
Regarding the whole concept of what is acceptable or not, as a manufacturer or retailer it's not up to us to determine what is acceptable to the customer. That is their job, and it is our job to make it to a level they will accept. At a price point of $1200, the kits are already in an area where there isn't a huge market for them. There are some DIYers who really want to build the ultimate system, but also many others who want a bargain. An extra $50-100 per kit to get the pieces cut on a CNC, or align them with pocket hole screws would not deter many people. It has been my experience that those willing to spend $1200 would easily spend the extra little bit of money to get a kit that goes together easily and save lots of time and effort.
John
markus76 said:
I answered both of the questions posed in your post.
MarKus - you did not answer mine - do you want to return the kit? Once you assemble it no deal, but right now, no problem.
The kits are meant to offer great sound not great looks. And if you are going to paint it with a roller and house paint then clearly looks are not a high priority with you, so I just don't get where you are coming from.
Markus,
Thanks for posting photos. Now that I have seen someone with
the kit, i am willing to order.
I recommend Acrytech speaker paint, if the rough texture fits
you particular style. I have used it with great success.
http://www.acrytech.com/store.asp?pid=14119
Please keep us updated on your construction progress, and of course
let us know how it sounds...
herm
P.S. I am glad I proofread my own message. I spelled your name with a C too!
P.S.S Dr. Geddes, where do I send the check?
Thanks for posting photos. Now that I have seen someone with
the kit, i am willing to order.
I recommend Acrytech speaker paint, if the rough texture fits
you particular style. I have used it with great success.
http://www.acrytech.com/store.asp?pid=14119
Please keep us updated on your construction progress, and of course
let us know how it sounds...
herm
P.S. I am glad I proofread my own message. I spelled your name with a C too!
P.S.S Dr. Geddes, where do I send the check?
herm said:
Thanks for the confidence!! I was begining to wonder!
Use
43516 Scenic Lane
Northville, MI 48167
It will be a little while before I build Nathans again as I am in the middle of developing the Abbey and I don't have the room for doing both at the same time. When the Abbey is done and I run some of those kits I'll go back to the Nathan and fill those orders. Anyway you look at it the queue is over a month for anything now. But, you do need to get into the queue to be in the next build. An order for an Abbey now would not make the first build of those. (But then do you really want to be the first
)And Markus, I do appologize for the mispelling.
I've used that paint before and it is great, but requires some specialized spray equipment. I believe that there are spray cans of similar material.
markus76 said:
Hi salas,
it's always interesting to hear how people form other countries picture a "typical" German
Best, Markus
I actually think that you target the waveguide performance and the complete and straightforward engineering of the project. You are after the sound. You know that you mainly bought acoustics evolution and you are more than willing to put up with some work around imperfections. Dr. Geddes does almost everything himself about the kits, and I am impressed on how a PHD man comes out as a handy man too. Rare combination and a tribute to DIY approach. I am very happy that something surely advanced comes out from here and the first to have are DIYers. The world won't listen. I.e. The audio establishment. Actually you help by BETA testing.
But I also know by having met many German engineers and German people in General, and having dealt with German companies and visited your country for tech and recreation, that conceptually you will never agree that making something dead right fitting and robust , isn't just normally expected. Germans are decent and willing, not compulsive and demanding. Making something exquisite and precise heightens the spirit.
Your challenge would be the Swiss.
gedlee said:
To be pedantic: no. You missed the question on lacquer. And another one again: the one on rounding the base.
No, why should I? I know someone's own daughters are the prettiest but don't be angry when someone else expresses his observations.
I think nobody will agree on that. If you offer them as a kit they have to be capable of delivering both! The latter part is up to the customer. I strongly agree with John saying "Regarding the whole concept of what is acceptable or not, as a manufacturer or retailer it's not up to us to determine what is acceptable to the customer. That is their job, and it is our job to make it to a level they will accept."
No need to be sarcastic. I used acrylic paint with good results even when using a roller. Depends on how skilled you are and how good the preparation of the surface you're painting on is.
What lacquer is used on the Ai ones? Such a finish would be an option for me if I don't get the enclosures smooth enough. Is it something similar to DuraTex?
@ John & herm: Thanks!
Best, Markus
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