Hey guys,
my name is Markus and I'm not native English so please excuse any spelling mistakes.
After stumbling upon Earl Geddes thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=122318 I decided to send him 1200 bucks end of May and started to wait. B&C speakers arrived mid July, parts for the crossover a few days later. Yesterday the cabinet parts arrived after a 2 months wait. I guess that's the price you have to pay for being first...
So this is what's included
- Baffle with casted waveguide
- Cabinet parts in MDF
- Screws and drive-in nuts
- Pre drilled compression driver mounting plate
- Foam insert for waveguide
- B&C driver
- Crossover parts
- Luster terminals for connecting the crossover parts
- Terminals
What's missing
- Damping (?)
Tools you need for assembly
- Wood glue
- Clamping fixture
- Drill
- Screwdriver
- Sanding paper
Here's what the Nathan 10 will look like when the cabinet parts are put together loosly:
Looks like a lot of adjustments and sanding... I guess that's the price you have to pay for...
Best, Markus
my name is Markus and I'm not native English so please excuse any spelling mistakes.
After stumbling upon Earl Geddes thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=122318 I decided to send him 1200 bucks end of May and started to wait. B&C speakers arrived mid July, parts for the crossover a few days later. Yesterday the cabinet parts arrived after a 2 months wait. I guess that's the price you have to pay for being first...
So this is what's included
- Baffle with casted waveguide
- Cabinet parts in MDF
- Screws and drive-in nuts
- Pre drilled compression driver mounting plate
- Foam insert for waveguide
- B&C driver
- Crossover parts
- Luster terminals for connecting the crossover parts
- Terminals
What's missing
- Damping (?)
Tools you need for assembly
- Wood glue
- Clamping fixture
- Drill
- Screwdriver
- Sanding paper
Here's what the Nathan 10 will look like when the cabinet parts are put together loosly:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Looks like a lot of adjustments and sanding... I guess that's the price you have to pay for...
Best, Markus
Markus, given the extra work of putting together a kit, you got maybe the most updated* shot at what a speaker should do rightly and in what order. Good choice. Let us know how you like it when you finish.
*It started escaping to the public. Good work Dr. Geddes! Now the real life of the concept starts.
*It started escaping to the public. Good work Dr. Geddes! Now the real life of the concept starts.
Hi,
after a closer examination I found that the 2 parts that build the baffle were glued slightly shifted. Furthermore the cut-out for the base isn't deep enough. So all parts would overlap the front baffle. Now there are two options: glue everything together or fix the baffle and sides first. Option 1 means a lot (and I mean a lot) of sanding and filling so I went for option 2 which meant buying a Dremel and some other stuff (e.g. missing screws for mounting the luster terminals):
Best, Markus
after a closer examination I found that the 2 parts that build the baffle were glued slightly shifted. Furthermore the cut-out for the base isn't deep enough. So all parts would overlap the front baffle. Now there are two options: glue everything together or fix the baffle and sides first. Option 1 means a lot (and I mean a lot) of sanding and filling so I went for option 2 which meant buying a Dremel and some other stuff (e.g. missing screws for mounting the luster terminals):
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Best, Markus
I know it's just a box, and don't take this the wrong way, but are you sure you put it together right? That looks screwed up. I would think everything should fit near perfect.
Post some pics of where all the errors are.
I would also contact Earl and see what he thinks, he may not be aware that his supplier has botched the cuts.
Post some pics of where all the errors are.
I would also contact Earl and see what he thinks, he may not be aware that his supplier has botched the cuts.
Kit costs too much?
$1200 for the kit is by no mean cheap, like Mr Gedlee argues you get a "very high end" product and it does not come in cheap.
According to me the most valued part of the kit is the waveguide the rest one can get them separately elsewhere or make your own like the cabinet, or use different woofer or compression driver one has in hand.
I wish one can just get the waveguide separately just like any other part. How much it will cost? Even if I can get it separately I don't think it will be at an affordable price($100-200 max each) for most people. Until I can afford it or buy them separately I drop the idea of buying the kit. Currently I am using my econowaveguide even though it is inferior I can still live with them quite happily, for the time being.
$1200 for the kit is by no mean cheap, like Mr Gedlee argues you get a "very high end" product and it does not come in cheap.
According to me the most valued part of the kit is the waveguide the rest one can get them separately elsewhere or make your own like the cabinet, or use different woofer or compression driver one has in hand.
I wish one can just get the waveguide separately just like any other part. How much it will cost? Even if I can get it separately I don't think it will be at an affordable price($100-200 max each) for most people. Until I can afford it or buy them separately I drop the idea of buying the kit. Currently I am using my econowaveguide even though it is inferior I can still live with them quite happily, for the time being.
The top round edges and the sides have to be rounded by yourself. That's how Earl planned it.
But variations of pre-cut parts are in the range of 0.5 - 2 mm. That's not acceptable and needs to be improved. The MDF used is not very dense which means a lot of extra work with filling and painting.
More tomorrow when little Dremel saved the baffles.
Best, Markus
But variations of pre-cut parts are in the range of 0.5 - 2 mm. That's not acceptable and needs to be improved. The MDF used is not very dense which means a lot of extra work with filling and painting.
More tomorrow when little Dremel saved the baffles.
Best, Markus
I guess I don't see how you are going to mate up the baffle with a curved top edge with a rounded edge on the top cabinet panel and make it look good. I know that is the way it is on the original Ai ESP10 but it seems to get that look will require lots of hand work where the baffle and top meet in the corners.
Good luck with your project.
Regards,
Dennis
Good luck with your project.
Regards,
Dennis
The sides DO NOT mate with the front because the edge round is 1" and the MDF IS 3/4". Yes, all edges need a lot of sanding. The best way to do the edges is to assemble the entire cabinet and then route the edges, but in a kit you can't do that. So there is no way to get a nice clean routed edge. BUT, with a little putty and some sandpaper its no problem getting the edges right. A 1" router bit needs a 1/2" router and costs more than $100.
I had no touble assembling my cabinets with out any flaws. (I'll post pics of those here when I get them painted). But yes the parts are cut rough as they are cut by hand. And I did find that the 3/4" MDF was not actually .75, but more like .83" which made the cuts off a bit (this was not caught until after Markus kits were made).
If you are not competent at doing assembly work - filling, sanding, etc. then you should buy them assmbled.
As to the MDF not being very dense - well I question that comment as I have never seen any that is any different.
The foam used to pack the materials is the internal damping - I hope that you didn't throw it away.
The screws for the crossover terminals should have been in the kit.
The fit, will and has improved, but this is not a kit for a novice. You need to have experience at fitting and assembling an enclosure.
And I seriously hope that you are not going to roller on the Behr paint. Thats latex and will not give a very good look (although it will hide a lot of flaws). Spray cans are a far far better choice, but you need to do a good job of finishing the woodwork.
I had no touble assembling my cabinets with out any flaws. (I'll post pics of those here when I get them painted). But yes the parts are cut rough as they are cut by hand. And I did find that the 3/4" MDF was not actually .75, but more like .83" which made the cuts off a bit (this was not caught until after Markus kits were made).
If you are not competent at doing assembly work - filling, sanding, etc. then you should buy them assmbled.
As to the MDF not being very dense - well I question that comment as I have never seen any that is any different.
The foam used to pack the materials is the internal damping - I hope that you didn't throw it away.
The screws for the crossover terminals should have been in the kit.
The fit, will and has improved, but this is not a kit for a novice. You need to have experience at fitting and assembling an enclosure.
And I seriously hope that you are not going to roller on the Behr paint. Thats latex and will not give a very good look (although it will hide a lot of flaws). Spray cans are a far far better choice, but you need to do a good job of finishing the woodwork.
Hi Earl,
the MDF in my kit is exactly 19 mm (0.75") thick.
I actually like to do assembly and finish by myself, but I would have returned pre cut parts when they vary like this. But that's not possible in this case because of the casted waveguide we're all eager to have in our hands.
You should also improve packaging as some boards got damaged. I'll post some pictures later.
Best, Markus
the MDF in my kit is exactly 19 mm (0.75") thick.
I actually like to do assembly and finish by myself, but I would have returned pre cut parts when they vary like this. But that's not possible in this case because of the casted waveguide we're all eager to have in our hands.
You should also improve packaging as some boards got damaged. I'll post some pictures later.
Best, Markus
Qc
It's always refreshing when a mfg. stands by their product and acknowledge that "the customer is always right", a well known (if somewhat dubious) reality of the business world.
it's also nice to see a response that doesn't patronize and/or chastise the customer for their perspective, especially on a DIY board.
Caveat Emptor I guess.
John L.
It's always refreshing when a mfg. stands by their product and acknowledge that "the customer is always right", a well known (if somewhat dubious) reality of the business world.
it's also nice to see a response that doesn't patronize and/or chastise the customer for their perspective, especially on a DIY board.
Caveat Emptor I guess.
John L.
Assembled Nathan
The MDF thickness does vary, but on my samples its never as low as .75" and thats using a micrometer.
You got a kit with two enclosures in one box, right? I don't do that anymore because it was too heavy and would tend to get damaged. I use one box per speaker and these shouldn't be a problem as they are more reasonable to handle.
Those parts are not cut on a numerical machine, which is what everybody uses these days, they are all cut by hand and there is going to be some variation. To have them cut by machine would push the kit price up substantially. Is that what you want? The fact is that it is no problem assembling the enclosure to a fine fit if you are somewhat experienced with a sander and some filler as the photo below will show. And it hasn't even been finished sanded yet.
If you are looking for precision to .5 mm then this is not a kit for you. If you are looking for the best sound quality obtainable for $1200 then you have it. You have to take the good with the bad.
The MDF thickness does vary, but on my samples its never as low as .75" and thats using a micrometer.
You got a kit with two enclosures in one box, right? I don't do that anymore because it was too heavy and would tend to get damaged. I use one box per speaker and these shouldn't be a problem as they are more reasonable to handle.
Those parts are not cut on a numerical machine, which is what everybody uses these days, they are all cut by hand and there is going to be some variation. To have them cut by machine would push the kit price up substantially. Is that what you want? The fact is that it is no problem assembling the enclosure to a fine fit if you are somewhat experienced with a sander and some filler as the photo below will show. And it hasn't even been finished sanded yet.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
If you are looking for precision to .5 mm then this is not a kit for you. If you are looking for the best sound quality obtainable for $1200 then you have it. You have to take the good with the bad.
Fosti said:
Passive could take a while, but active......shure! I wouldn't go for passive anymore, it's an anachronism
Those are mine:
There is nothing anachronistic about a passive crossover. The concept and implementation is, at its essence, not much different from an active crossover. While there are certainly benefits to a multi-amped system using active crossovers, when it comes right down to it, you are still crossing over an electrical signal in essentially the same manner, through the use of LCR based filters. The biggest benefit to the active crossover is that it can use smaller cheaper parts, since they don't have to deal with the high currents, and thus be higher quality and better performing for a given price point. The negative is that they are far more complicated to implement correctly, and the average pro audio crossover does not have the necassary adjustments to properly integrate drivers (imo). Another big problem is that passive crossovers must use, if designed correctly, buffers, to ensure that the filters are fed a consistent signal. This means often noisy opamps and noisy power supplies to power the opamps. It doesn't have to mean this, but for whatever reason, a lot of even really high end crossovers are noisy in my opinion. Then you have digital crossovers, which while fully manipulatable, is a whole seperate back of tricks I have a current disdain for (again its noise issues). So for my point with all this, I don't see you being better able to implement a crossover for your setup on par with Dr. Geddes electronically short of using a highly manipulatable multipole (By this I mean one you can manipulate each pole and its q separately) active or digital active crossover.
As for Fit and Finish of these kits, I guess I was a little taken back when I saw, but I guess its not a huge deal. I purchased a kit once for my brother from a company in England who used precision CNC machined parts. While the MDF was cut pretty well, and everything looked like it was going to fit well, it didn't. Probably partly caused by the MDF swelling some, probably partly because precise cuts in a material like MDF isn't real easy. Anyway, because the enclosure was designed to fit together precisely, things actually came out worse than if it had been designed around looser tolerances. In the end, it required a lot of work to get everything working. It reminds me of the AK-47 vs American M16. While the M16 is clearly the superior engineering feat in weaponery, which precision tolerances, greater accuracy, and wider capability, it has been the AK-47's intentional inaccuracy that has made it such a versatile weapon that has stood the test of time.
Dr. Geddes, I just read what you wrote about the numerical cutting machines. I know of some companies I have used which can do decent precision mdf cutting on a numerical machine, and their prices have always been very decent. I would be surprised if it raised the price, and would think it would actually lower the price. Let me know if this is of any interest, and I can put you in contact with them. Also, if they can not handle your volume (They get backed up rather often), I know that GR Research has put me in contact with larger more professional companies, but I would worry that they would increase costs potentially unless enough volume was done.
I should also point out that the assembled enclosure that I showed above used rejected parts that didn't even fit as well as what I shipped to Markus. Markus picture is not fair in that the enclosure is only loosley held together and the parts will shift.
As to passive versus active, I don't believe in active at all as there is absolutely no advantage, only a huge increase in cost. I have done both on numerous occasions and the passive always comes out just as well. In fact in one case we found that the active crossover parameters were way off and the settings could not be relied upon at all. It was a real pain. Give me passive every time.
To all, the parts in this kit are cut by hand NOT on a CNC machine. There will be variations. The waveguide ends up being pretty precise, but even then plastic shrinkage etc. makes the throat dimensions somewhat variable. But ALL of this is correctable and does not interfer with the final products performance in any way. Its just a little harder to assemble thats all.
As to passive versus active, I don't believe in active at all as there is absolutely no advantage, only a huge increase in cost. I have done both on numerous occasions and the passive always comes out just as well. In fact in one case we found that the active crossover parameters were way off and the settings could not be relied upon at all. It was a real pain. Give me passive every time.
To all, the parts in this kit are cut by hand NOT on a CNC machine. There will be variations. The waveguide ends up being pretty precise, but even then plastic shrinkage etc. makes the throat dimensions somewhat variable. But ALL of this is correctable and does not interfer with the final products performance in any way. Its just a little harder to assemble thats all.
gedlee said:
If you're interested, send me an email. We have the CNC router here and can easily knock out something like this quickly. I've had a lot of experience making cabinets and knock down kits in the past. Simply making a jig to align all parts and clamp them together allows you to router all edges. As you temporarily align the cabinet you can even then draw pencil lines across the seams so people can use them to re-align everything together correctly. The ideal way would be to design the cabinet with miter joints so it pops together simply. You can do this whether you are using a CNC or not. Cutting miter joints on a table saw doesn't too take long either if you have a dado blade. Another option that works well for kits is to use pocket hole screws. The whole cabinet can then be screwed together and all the corners routered. Then simply take it apart and pack it up. They'd just have to fill in the pocket holes when done. Marglass or Glasslite works much better than standard body filler or wood filler. If you use a smaller roundover bit first when doing the edges, then go with the bigger 1" roundover will help eliminate the bouncing at the corners. Need to go nice and slow at the corners and hold the router tight, and also when cutting out the holes to avoid the bumps. Anyway, the offer is there if you are interested. We could cut these quickly and for not a lot of money.
John
John_E_Janowitz said:
John
Thanks, I already have quotes from people for this and the point is that with shipping etc. all this expense has to be added to the product cost since there is no room for it in the margins. Quite honestly, the fit has never been an issue for me and I don't understand why it is now. As I showed, the enclosure went together just fine for me and unless there are others who feel that they are willing to pay the extra cost for numerically cut parts, I am not inclined to increase the price to do so. They have and will get better with time as I work through the tolerancing issues.
I may go to an outside shop at some point because of workload, but probably not because of a better fit. At this point there needs to be a viable product at the lowest possible price, or there is no business at all.
E-mail me with a quote to do all the wood parts and I'll consider it, but from the quotes that I have seen, its not really worth the money at this point.
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