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Old 19th August 2008, 10:37 PM   #521
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShinOBIWAN


The moral of the story here? Geddes is an OAP
Really annoying these personal attacks and offenses....

I'm only trying to follow this interesting thread because it is about non-standard speakers in a development diy contest (as opposed to consumer ready to market products).
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Old 19th August 2008, 10:41 PM   #522
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Come on, personal attacks?

Nothing of the sort. Light hearted humour hence the smilie.

But I believe you just proved the point of my little story.
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Old 19th August 2008, 10:48 PM   #523
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Shin ...

Your job is to MODERATE, not AGITATE.

Just a thought ...
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Old 19th August 2008, 10:49 PM   #524
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShinOBIWAN
[B]

Supplying quality product and a business failing in a limited market are two different things. I don't see a correlation. Supplying a poor product and a business failing are definitely related though.

Businesses go under everyday and yes its horrible for those involved. However I think it goes without saying that if the product isn't up to standard then this will only become an inevitability and that company won't be missed. Harsh but true.
I don't agree. There are hundreds of successful mediocre products. Microsoft Vista comes to mind.

Quote:
Originally posted by ShinOBIWAN
[B]Regardless of how generous folks are with their time, the minute they sell something, there's a certain level of quality to be reached - enough to satisfy the customer.
That attitude is the number one reason I don't do audio for a living.

Here's an example of this. I know someone who went into business selling hand built subwoofers. He used quality drivers and finished the enclosures with loving care. When it came time to sell them, everyone expected to pay 25% of what his asking prices were. In his mind, the use of expensive parts and a real wood finish justified the additional markup. In the customers mind, they expected to pay maybe $100 more than what it would cost to buy a junk subwoofer at Circuit City.

And that's why audio is dying. It's a race to the bottom, where people are more concerned with fit & finish than the sound.

And THAT'S why I'm in software, not audio. I *personally* know MULTI MILLIONAIRES who got filthy rich off of buggy, unreliable software. Software that barely worked, but was UNIQUE or filled a niche that wasn't served by the competition. If Dr Geddes was in Silicon Valley instead of Detroit, he'd be a billionaire and no one here would know who he is. He'd probably have a couple of IPOs under his belt and a big engineering team somewhere in Cupertino.

Quote:
Originally posted by ShinOBIWAN
[B]BTW Wiggins failed not because of the DIY market but because some of his partners ran off with a load of money and he made a bad call switching production to overseas. He also, at times, provided shoddy aftersales service.

Folks were and still are screaming out for his drivers so the demand is and was there.
I visited their offices a dozen times, and I always got the vibe that their OEM work paid the bills. There just aren't many DIYers out here, and they're an unforgiving and demanding clientèle. They want everything for the lowest price, and their expectations of quality are unrivaled. It's just a merciless market.


Quote:
Originally posted by ShinOBIWAN
Behind every failed business there's usually either bad decisions involved or bad products.
Again, I can name a hundred businesses which sell a crummy product and are doing just fine. Look at the supplement industry; the majority of over-the-counter weight loss products are complete snake oil, yet they sell year after year.

Audio is unique - it's an industry which rewards flash over substance, cosmetics over acoustics.

If I were selling these, I'd skip the DIY crowd entirely, and focus my efforts on the custom home theater crowd or the prosound crowd.
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Old 19th August 2008, 10:51 PM   #525
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Quote:
Originally posted by Carl_Huff
Shin ...

Your job is to MODERATE
Not for long, I like to speak my mind and not have that tied up with moderator title.
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Old 19th August 2008, 11:11 PM   #526
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Quote:
Originally posted by markus76


Isn't diffraction like a decorrelated reflection when the diffracted sound arrives at the listening position?
Is there a way to measure or calculate the point when a reflection becomes decorrelated enought to have a positive impact?
Markus

In answer to an intelligent comment: No.

Both diffraction and reflection yield signals that are highly correlated to the source - thats what makes them so dangerous. But, notice that I said "highly correlated" because they are begining to be "less" correlated to the source. As these reflections diffract or reflect again, and then again, the correlation drops even more. There is no clear cut demarcation as to the switch to them becoming positive. As the time lag increases the ear becomes less sensitive to these correlated signals and they become less correlated themselves. The best that one can say is that you want to minimize the early ones as much as possible. In small spaces this is tough, but the more you do the better the result. There is simply no way that you are going to get the early diffraction and reflection effects in a small room to zero in the first 20 ms. The greater the lag and the lower the level the better. Directionality helps out a great deal. As does sound absorption behind and to the near sides of the speakers. Duffusing the first reflections appears to be a positive thing (floor, ceiling, side walls). Its all about the extremes that you are willing to go to to achieve the end result.
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Old 19th August 2008, 11:21 PM   #527
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Quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Bateman


And that's why audio is dying. It's a race to the bottom, where people are more concerned with fit & finish than the sound.


IF audio is dying its because the new generation is NOT interested in music, but only noise, and you dont need fancy gear fore that
Also, most prefer to spend their money on big expencive TV screens and use whats left on the sound
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Old 19th August 2008, 11:22 PM   #528
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Quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Bateman That attitude is the number one reason I don't do audio for a living.

Here's an example of this. I know someone who went into business selling hand built subwoofers. He used quality drivers and finished the enclosures with loving care. When it came time to sell them, everyone expected to pay 25% of what his asking prices were. In his mind, the use of expensive parts and a real wood finish justified the additional markup. In the customers mind, they expected to pay maybe $100 more than what it would cost to buy a junk subwoofer at Circuit City.

And that's why audio is dying. It's a race to the bottom, where people are more concerned with fit & finish than the sound.

And THAT'S why I'm in software, not audio. I *personally* know MULTI MILLIONAIRES who got filthy rich off of buggy, unreliable software. Software that barely worked, but was UNIQUE or filled a niche that wasn't served by the competition. If Dr Geddes was in Silicon Valley instead of Detroit, he'd be a billionaire and no one here would know who he is. He'd probably have a couple of IPOs under his belt and a big engineering team somewhere in Cupertino.
Its true that the audio market is largely driven by numbers and aesthetics. DIY'ers might not be so susceptible to that but I think everyone likes something that's well built as well as design correctly.

You have to ask yourself is that worth what I paid. To some it isn't and to others it is.

Personally, and you know this already, I'd be disappointed to have paid money for what the OP received from Earl. Others don't see it as a problem. That's fine but drawing parallels to products from other industries doesn't justify anything for me. Were not talking about products external to this thread or how much money there is to be made elsewhere and if we are we're wasting our time.

Quote:
I visited their offices a dozen times, and I always got the vibe that their OEM work paid the bills. There just aren't many DIYers out here, and they're an unforgiving and demanding clientèle. They want everything for the lowest price, and their expectations of quality are unrivaled. It's just a merciless market.
Completely agreed but virtually all business sectors are pretty merciless as you put it and if they aren't they soon will be.

As a fairly accurate generalisation, customers demand the best for the cheapest price and then complain when that doesn't happen. However I don't think asking Earl to improve upon what's been shown in this thread is asking for the best. Its asking for simple QC.

If he doesn't improve it then you can bet he'll be hanging out with Dan. The customers will see to that so we're influencing very little here.

Step back and take a look at the larger picture here. People just want something that's OK. I think that's perfectly reasonable and Earls venture will benefit from it. Ignore this and well, he'll fail eventually and you can add another to the list of DIY casualties.

Quote:
If I were selling these, I'd skip the DIY crowd entirely, and focus my efforts on the custom home theater crowd or the prosound crowd.
Earl is already heavily involved in the home theater side of things I believe. His distortion metrics are widely respected throughout the industry.
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Old 19th August 2008, 11:36 PM   #529
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I'm feeling honored to have given you the opportunity to have all those nice little off-topic discussions

But there was something else - right:

Click the image to open in full size.

This blue green brown stuff is Bondo filler. It's a real mess and cures within seconds if you mix it with to much hardener. But even if you get it right you only have 5 minutes to get the job done.

After sanding (grid 80) it looks like this:

Click the image to open in full size.

Then I drilled all holes needed for the screws of the back board. Here's why:

Click the image to open in full size.

The screws act as a spacer so the enclosure can easily be painted. This is after one coat of sanding sealer (that stuff has a consistency like milk):

Click the image to open in full size.

After 2 hours and filling same more holes with Bondo I sanded everything with sanding paper 220 grid and applied another coat of sanding sealer:

Click the image to open in full size.

Now the box is mostly sealed but there are still areas where the MDF is matt which means "Apply more sealer" - tomorrow...

Best, Markus

P.S. The white stuff on the bottom of the box in the last picture is normal wood filler. Just wanted to test what the difference to Bondo will be.
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Old 19th August 2008, 11:43 PM   #530
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Quote:
Originally posted by ShinOBIWAN

Personally, and you know this already, I'd be disappointed to have paid money for what the OP received from Earl. Others don't see it as a problem. That's fine but drawing parallels to products from other industries doesn't justify anything for me. Were not talking about products external to this thread or how much money there is to be made elsewhere and if we are we're wasting our time.
A picture is worth a thousand words. From the pictures in this thread I see that the fit & finish on the cabinets wasn't up to the standard you'd see from cabinets offered by Parts Express. The PE cabinets are built by a machine, not a human.

If you used Parts Express cabinets, it wouldn't work properly - the round over is a fundamental part of the design. So buy some bondo, and fill in the gap. Simple as that.

Brett posted pictures showing that the finish on the INSIDE OF THE CABINETS wasn't flawless. Again, this doesn't effect the sound.

Last but not least, the holes weren't perfectly centered. Big deal - drill new holes.

As I type this post, I'm listening to a finished product (the Summas). You guys will be besides yourself once you HEAR the finished product. It's the last speaker you'l ever buy.

$1200 is a SCREAMING DEAL here guys.

If I'm not mistaken, Dr Geddes are the only ones here who have actually HEARD the finished product. Don't let a little wood putty or bondo scare you off, these things are a STEAL.
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