loopguru said:
I think there is not more parts cost or materials in that speaker. I think you are making it out to be more than it is. They are trying to sell that as a giant killer mini speaker, buts its not. I have auditioned them, as I was interested when I first saw them, but they perform like other 1500 dollar minimonitors. The efficiency is 82db's at 1 watt, as compared to the high 90's for Dr. Geddes. Max output of that design will be 100db's at most, assuming it doesn't run out of xmax, where as Dr. Geddes will cleanly do over 115db's for the smaller kit and over 120 for the larger kits. Probably over 120 for all of them if somewhat bandwidth limited. The cost of small enclosures is disproportionately less to produce than larger ones, so even the slightly higher cost of the cast resin enclosure wont likely be as high as what a larger enclosure would be.
The kits are offered without the cabinets by the way. These aren't easy assembly kits though, and Dr. Geddes has said before that he never said they were. If you get just the drivers, horn, and foam insert, you have to cut a front baffle yourself and adhere the horn to it. It's not like other horns that have mounting screw holes and can just be inserted into the cabinet. My guess is that Dr. Geddes did this to avoid diffraction problems.
Another issue here, which may be the difference in expectations we all seem to have, is that I don't consider Dr. Geddes a vendor. I mean, Gedlee is a company, but I really was looking at these kits as more of a favor to DIYers than anything. It seems like there are a lot of people on this forum and others who will have a design for something, and will either produce more of them than they need, or even start a separate side business to sell them, but not really run it as the primary form of employment. Maybe this is all Dr. Geddes is doing right now, I don't really know, but that was my initial assumption based on how he approached offering the kits.
The parts express boxes can't really be compared with what is needed for Dr. Geddes project (Otherwise I'm sure he would use them), or what I have needed to buy in the past. While I don't want to get into a huge debate over the quality of them, I will say that they are very small, and mass produced by the millions in China. They are made by, as I understand it, the largest cabinet manufacturer in China, and the design was a sort of in house oem design, of which variations are sold to 100's if not 1000's of speaker manufacturers and retailers. While for most smaller bookshelf designs up to a mid sized MTM, I think they are a great value, they aren't offered in large enough sizes to be practical for larger or more complex designs. When I have asked Madisound and Parts Express why they don't offer larger enclosures, they told me it wasn't economical for them. Shipping is way too high from China, and then to customers, they don't sell as many of them, and even in mass production, the end cost is too close to what a cabinet maker would charge. The quote that Madisound gave me for a 3 cubic foot tower from the same company that makes their enclosures (Which I think they said are not made in China, but I'm not sure), was around 400 each, or 800 for the pair, with 100 dollars shipping to the customer, so around 900. I don't blame them for not offering anything larger than the 1.3 cubic foot tower, and for PE not offering a tower or really large bookshelf at all.
Maybe you guys over across the pond have it better than us American diyers when it comes to enclosure availability. It does seem like you guys have more suppliers and companies than us, but maybe its one of those, the honey is always sweeter in the other hive things.
pjpoes said:
Geddes did this as a favour? That implies we should be grateful or even that we owe him something. I'm guessing what we owe him is some slack in this case? Criticism drives products forwards, not settling for third rate. He should take on board what's been said and either make it clear about the quality and level of finish his products display so the buyer can make a more informed decision or use it to make better products and fix the problems existing customers are having. Thankfully due to this thread at least some of that appears to be happening already.
Regardless of this, he's making money here, make no mistake. All along he's made it clear that he considers himself commercial and makes a living from audio. He came here and gave information but at the same time marketed his design concepts and products. No favour from him, its business that's the primary concern.
Let call a spade a spade. Your very much into the whole idea of these waveguides and loudspeakers but I think that's clouding the issue somewhat and in turn makes it tough to discuss this with you. My opinions have been based on information that's been posted throughout this thread and it doesn't look great. Most of what you've talked about is unrelated to the matter at hand and that is Earl messed up a couple of peoples orders and will hopefully fix these issues. I don't think you need to be fastidious and meticulous to appreciate this fact.
Just to say, I do hope Dr. Geddes does not take the criticism to heart. It is hard when you have put a lot of yourself in to an item, to have people pick holes in it.
However, I do hope that he takes constructive points away from this thread and manages to create a more informative website and improve the fit and finish of his product.
However, I do hope that he takes constructive points away from this thread and manages to create a more informative website and improve the fit and finish of his product.
hi guys, I've never heard waveguide-loaded tweeters before, but really keen to clone the Physics CS2.
The commercial 12" waveguide I can only find is something like this, which will be used with selenium compression driver:
They're only $20 or so. So I am now wondering what is the difference between this and the discussed $200 waveguides in this thread? What is so compelling about it that I want to spend 10x the cost and still put up with quality issue?
The commercial 12" waveguide I can only find is something like this, which will be used with selenium compression driver:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
They're only $20 or so. So I am now wondering what is the difference between this and the discussed $200 waveguides in this thread? What is so compelling about it that I want to spend 10x the cost and still put up with quality issue?
Hey to each there own here right. Some people think the product being peddled is unacceptable, others think its fine for what it is. If you look at his vendor page, there is a happy customer too who shows a great looking set of baffles. My DIY experience has not, apparently, been quite as positive, especially in the speaker enclosure and amplifier enclosure department, so I'm used to things like this.
It was my post and it is at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1586931#post1586931
I appreciate all that was said. The decision to purchase is individual - you have to decide for yourself.
But make no mistake about it (just read the posts about the perfromance of my speakers on my web site, http://www.gedlee.com/summa.htm) these are not "ordinary" speakers.
The business decisions must remain mine as I am the one whose taking the biggest risk of all.
One last thing. All those "other" kits don't meet the criteria. Boxes with square edges and corners are trivial to make that "fit like a glove". Show me the enclosure with a flat baffle with 1" radiused corners. It is that feature and that feature alone that is so difficult to do, but delete it and you have "just another box".
But make no mistake about it (just read the posts about the perfromance of my speakers on my web site, http://www.gedlee.com/summa.htm) these are not "ordinary" speakers.
The business decisions must remain mine as I am the one whose taking the biggest risk of all.
One last thing. All those "other" kits don't meet the criteria. Boxes with square edges and corners are trivial to make that "fit like a glove". Show me the enclosure with a flat baffle with 1" radiused corners. It is that feature and that feature alone that is so difficult to do, but delete it and you have "just another box".
after going though many changes of mind over the last twelve months I though I had found something I could go for , that is the larger version to come of these speakers. I have followed many threads closely and tried to absorb what I can. I began to have some doubts earlier on when people were trying to develop spreadsheets to give this waveguide profile and were told, quite scathingly really, that their results were not accurate enough, especially in the first few millimetres at the throat. Now I don't know. It seems that .001 to .002 inches error in radius has become acceptable, and in fact the errors appear to be much larger. I wonder now is the waveguide just another waveguide and is the true merit in the foam plug which does lower efficiency where on most speakers of this type it can afford to be lowered, when reducing the audibility of HOMS. That was an awful sentence I hope you can understand it. I will not be in the market for this system.
jamikl
jamikl
to gainphile,
Those PE (Dayton) circular waveguides have some problems around the throat.
Here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112641&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
See the bottom of that page, and the next.
You may of course try them since they are cheap. Be prepared to do something yourself, though.
I myself feel it's worth the effort. Eventually I got very smooth and open treble from it (with Eminence APT).
Those PE (Dayton) circular waveguides have some problems around the throat.
Here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112641&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
See the bottom of that page, and the next.
You may of course try them since they are cheap. Be prepared to do something yourself, though.
I myself feel it's worth the effort. Eventually I got very smooth and open treble from it (with Eminence APT).
making a waveguide
ya know... it'd be fairly trivial to reproduce this waveguide once one has a correctly made prototype, or section thereof.
Anyone ever hear of electroforming? After all it's a process used to make everything from jet engine fairing master molds, money, automobile dashboard/instrument panels, vinyl records, compact discs, microwaveguides, inkjet nozzles, shuttle combustion chambers, rotogravure cylinders, typeset, etc. I should know, I've gotten patents for several inventions using the process.
Positive copies, negative copies, you name it... as long as there are no re-entrant angles that are too deep, most any shape or form can be reproduced to tolerances often measured in the sub-micron range, repeatedly, out of nickel, copper, silver, etc.
So all this talk about how difficult making these is a bit amusing to seasoned manufacturing engineers.
John L.
ya know... it'd be fairly trivial to reproduce this waveguide once one has a correctly made prototype, or section thereof.
Anyone ever hear of electroforming? After all it's a process used to make everything from jet engine fairing master molds, money, automobile dashboard/instrument panels, vinyl records, compact discs, microwaveguides, inkjet nozzles, shuttle combustion chambers, rotogravure cylinders, typeset, etc. I should know, I've gotten patents for several inventions using the process.
Positive copies, negative copies, you name it... as long as there are no re-entrant angles that are too deep, most any shape or form can be reproduced to tolerances often measured in the sub-micron range, repeatedly, out of nickel, copper, silver, etc.
So all this talk about how difficult making these is a bit amusing to seasoned manufacturing engineers.
John L.
I too think Earl would be better off delivering a professional manufactured baffle. From there the customer should have the option to buy a) only the baffle or b) the baffle plus precisely pre-cut boards that don't require extensive sanding.
I totally agree with Earl saying that he can sell anything to any price he decides. The customer has to make the decision if he wants to buy. I decided to buy without knowing all the facts for various reasons. But this thread should give everybody a pretty good picture an how things are.
So on with some on-topic stuff: Received the new top boards. Of course they had to have a little pedicure before they would fit. But I got them for free so I don't want to complain at all. Here are some pictures how the glued box looks like now:
I trimmed all parts for a exact fit before glueing them together to minimize sanding:
But you still have to round (and fill) the top edges:
The line marks the end of the radius:
Earl should be more descriptive on his webpage on this. By the way, please replace "may be" with "are" in "Some woodworking skills and tools may be required for assembly."
Best, Markus
I totally agree with Earl saying that he can sell anything to any price he decides. The customer has to make the decision if he wants to buy. I decided to buy without knowing all the facts for various reasons. But this thread should give everybody a pretty good picture an how things are.
So on with some on-topic stuff: Received the new top boards. Of course they had to have a little pedicure before they would fit. But I got them for free so I don't want to complain at all. Here are some pictures how the glued box looks like now:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I trimmed all parts for a exact fit before glueing them together to minimize sanding:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
But you still have to round (and fill) the top edges:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The line marks the end of the radius:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Earl should be more descriptive on his webpage on this. By the way, please replace "may be" with "are" in "Some woodworking skills and tools may be required for assembly."
Best, Markus
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