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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 1st August 2008, 02:20 PM   #111
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pjpoes, have you had the opportunity to use the XTA DP226 or the Dolby Lake?
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Old 1st August 2008, 02:21 PM   #112
KSTR is offline KSTR  Germany
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Quote:
Originally posted by pjpoes
Since when do opamps filter? The filtering itself takes place from the resistors and capacitors not the opamps. Opamps are simply used for buffers in such circuits.
Given the immense variety of active filter circuits, I dare to disagree. In fact there are only few specific circuit topologies that use unity gain buffers, one of them being a specific class of Sallen-Key filters, another is circuits which use simulated inductors based on buffers and third is simple passive RC or whatever which are buffered for the only reason of unloading their outputs.

- Klaus
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Old 1st August 2008, 02:31 PM   #113
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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My experience with active filters is consistant with that above, if not worse. They have too much gain for home use and they are very hard to dial in the desired filter shapes because they all seem to use different definitions of Q, etc. All this trouble and in the end you end up with something that sounds the same, at best, but costs many times more than the simple passive network.
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Old 1st August 2008, 03:18 PM   #114
KSTR is offline KSTR  Germany
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But you are talking of those typical generic active crossover boxes, not dedicated specific active filters (that is, developped exactly to spec., generating the right acoustic target in a dedicated active environment, stuff like ie. Mr.Linkwitz and Mr.Kreskovsky are doing), aren't you?

I agree, though, that going active just for the sake of doing so is not going to make better system in terms of cost and perfomance. This probably will only happen if you make use of things you just can't do passively, like servo-loops for bass-speaker, or things that are very hard to do passively, like more exotic transfer characteristics (say, higher order transient perfect x-overs).

- Klaus
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Old 1st August 2008, 03:31 PM   #115
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Earl/All

Silly suggestion but if one cant get 1" stock, what about layering 1/2" stock? Just for the baffle? Or adding 1/4" to the existing 3/4"?

Also, could you not special order 1" stock? Again, just for the baffles to save on cost.

As for cutting, surely your supplier has a free cutting service, I know the majority of sheet material suppliers near me do, from the major diy stores to the individual specialists, and they are all very accurate (IME). Just work out the cuts you want in advance.

If/When I buy, I would likely want the complete kit minus the box (so with the baffle/WG, crossover and drivers)

Nick.

PS: I intend no disrespect and I am still saving for a pair of nathans.

PPS: Early adoptors always experience issues, see pretty much every electronics gadget from the last 20 years from Compact Disc onwards, through iPod batteries etc....
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Old 1st August 2008, 04:09 PM   #116
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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The problem now is that the baffle can't change because it is embedded into the mold for the waveguide. Changes makes the mold obsolete and new molds are very expensive. A 1" baffle also surpresses the woofer down another 1/4" which is not the right direction. IMO the way its done now is optimal albeit requires some rework to finish.

I'd prefer people just make their own cabinets if they can. That saves me a lot of non-value-added work. But how will you radius the top?

My wood supplier won't/can't cut accurately. Maybe there are some who will, I'll have to check. That is a very good idea and would save me a lot of trouble. Of course its still hand cut and still prone to tollerancing issues. The only way arround that is CNC, but we've beat that horse to death.
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Old 1st August 2008, 04:13 PM   #117
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by KSTR

I agree, though, that going active just for the sake of doing so is not going to make better system in terms of cost and perfomance. This probably will only happen if you make use of things you just can't do passively, like servo-loops for bass-speaker, or things that are very hard to do passively, like more exotic transfer characteristics (say, higher order transient perfect x-overs).

- Klaus
I first think that you have to show that those "exotic" solutions add value. Bass servo loops certainly don't do it for me and I am not sure how an exotic transfer function could improve upon the end result that I can get passively.
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Old 1st August 2008, 04:13 PM   #118
badman is offline badman  United States
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SNIP!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy_Git
Earl/All
PPS: Early adoptors always experience issues, see pretty much every electronics gadget from the last 20 years from Compact Disc onwards, through iPod batteries etc....
But in this case the problems could not just have been avoided, but easily avoided, and there's no MDF warrantee helping Markus out here. Malfunctioning early CDPs/iPods got returned/repaired/replaced. Here, Markus is forced to dremel the parts to fit, and use lots of filler, etc. Let me repeat- DREMEL. He's obviously not set up for correcting the poor woodwork.

And I think Earl is being very rude, his sloppy woodwork and expecting DIYers to "Sand and fill" grossly miscut parts is ludicrous, as is "I can't get MDF in 1". Sure you can. Anybody in the USA can. You're being extremely lazy as far as the cabinet is concerned, probably because you're so proud of your waveguide that it's all you think about. Earl, you owe Markus a big apology, both for your sloppy work and combative attitude, and I'd suggest a 10% refund for his time having to correct your bad work.

For a $1200 kit, one of the most expensive kit speakers on the market, one expects more, especially when this kit absolutely requires a sub.

http://www.occamaudio.com/shop.html

Take a look at the CNC'd parts on this site. They're not $100 extra per for good woodwork, they're $200 TOTAL for the complete MTM4 kit B, which has a bolt-together enclosure with perfect tolerances, and CNC'd front baffle.

Your refusal to own up is frustrating for me as an outsider. Do the right thing, fess up, fix the problems, and give our man Markus some love.

I've done more precise woodwork with battery powered ryobi tools.
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Old 1st August 2008, 04:18 PM   #119
Salas is online now Salas  Greece
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Quote:
Originally posted by aubergine
pjpoes, have you had the opportunity to use the XTA DP226 or the Dolby Lake?
Head and shoulders above average, those suggestions.

Quote:
Originally posted by KSTR
But you are talking of those typical generic active crossover boxes, not dedicated specific active filters (that is, developped exactly to spec., generating the right acoustic target in a dedicated active environment, stuff like ie. Mr.Linkwitz and Mr.Kreskovsky are doing), aren't you?

I agree, though, that going active just for the sake of doing so is not going to make better system in terms of cost and perfomance. This probably will only happen if you make use of things you just can't do passively, like servo-loops for bass-speaker, or things that are very hard to do passively, like more exotic transfer characteristics (say, higher order transient perfect x-overs).

- Klaus
The active way is the only way when we talk outdoors reinforcement in the kW range. There, the dissipation of the passive networks is a major reliability issue. Passive is no slouch for quality otherwise. And keeps things simple in one box. Also there are some passive impedance traps and other techniques that are not handy with active.
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Old 1st August 2008, 04:23 PM   #120
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When you're prototyping then using a digital crossover is much more convenient because it can save you a lot of time. When it comes to the final product like the Nathan 10, a passive crossover is much more convenient to the customer. And it serves the same purpose as the digital one. But there are constellations where going digital integrates better and is therefore cheaper or it's just a necessity (e.g. http://www.fouraudio.de/WaveFieldSynthesis.html).

But back to the Nathan 10:

Good news! Earl offered me to cut new top boards - thank you. It'll take some time because he has to do some paintwork right now. So I'll focus on building the crossover.

Here's a picture what the enclosures currently look like (top boards are not glued and will be replaced):

Click the image to open in full size.

As for the stands I'll use something like this:

Click the image to open in full size.

Best, Markus
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