OK
I know we are doing this topic every now and then.
But then again we seem to go over just about everything several times, so why not!
Heres what I need.
A largeish bookshelf (not tower) speaker at around 100 liter or less of volume. My listening criteria are:
Somewhat fullrange, but the lowest of low can be subtle. I just dont want any separete subwoofers.
"Flat" response on axis from say 55 hz and up to 18khz.
Uncolored and detailed sound. Sounds easy right?
Other things to bake into the equation.
Proven design. Im done experimenting for righ now.
Theese speakers needs to sum up quickly since this speaker will be at less then 10 foot distance from me.
They will be placed on axis, facing me in a tringle shape. I will be sitting in a 12 by 16 foot room with 9 foot ceilings, speakers against the short wall about 1.5 foot from the wall.
They must be able to withstand loud volume and peaks since they will reproduce uncompressed not mastered material.
I have a good large hafler amplifier.
Theese can be 2way,3way,wwt,wmtw, or whatever acoustic-hocus-pocus-horn we can think of.
I have a maximum cost of 1000 USD for drivers and crossover parts.
Links and Ideas are so very welcome.
I know we are doing this topic every now and then.
But then again we seem to go over just about everything several times, so why not!
Heres what I need.
A largeish bookshelf (not tower) speaker at around 100 liter or less of volume. My listening criteria are:
Somewhat fullrange, but the lowest of low can be subtle. I just dont want any separete subwoofers.
"Flat" response on axis from say 55 hz and up to 18khz.
Uncolored and detailed sound. Sounds easy right?
Other things to bake into the equation.
Proven design. Im done experimenting for righ now.
Theese speakers needs to sum up quickly since this speaker will be at less then 10 foot distance from me.
They will be placed on axis, facing me in a tringle shape. I will be sitting in a 12 by 16 foot room with 9 foot ceilings, speakers against the short wall about 1.5 foot from the wall.
They must be able to withstand loud volume and peaks since they will reproduce uncompressed not mastered material.
I have a good large hafler amplifier.
Theese can be 2way,3way,wwt,wmtw, or whatever acoustic-hocus-pocus-horn we can think of.
I have a maximum cost of 1000 USD for drivers and crossover parts.
Links and Ideas are so very welcome.
From one of the best in the business.... Vance Dickason. F3 around 54Hz.
http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/diy/vance/ldc6kit.html
http://www.partsexpress.com/resources/diy/vance/ldc6kit.html
well thanks everyone.
But Im not looking to do a tower....or a centerchannel...or a nearfield.
Im sure zaph have the greatest floorstanders and small bookshelf
but Im looking to build something more like this:
http://www.jblpro.com/pages/recording/4400.htm#4412A
or like this
http://www2.jblpro.com/catalog/General/Product.aspx?PId=26&MId=5
Im looking for something rather large and with drivers that can play loud all day long.
But Im not looking to do a tower....or a centerchannel...or a nearfield.
Im sure zaph have the greatest floorstanders and small bookshelf
but Im looking to build something more like this:
http://www.jblpro.com/pages/recording/4400.htm#4412A
or like this
http://www2.jblpro.com/catalog/General/Product.aspx?PId=26&MId=5
Im looking for something rather large and with drivers that can play loud all day long.
So I guess odd looking 3 ways are no no here.
Is there no specific large studio monitor diy design out there?
one again Large,Loud and Neutral.
So far Dr Geddes design seems close to what I want but I have general doubts about the neutral part of "large,loud and neutral" when it comes to pro drivers covering large frequency ranges.
Is there no specific large studio monitor diy design out there?
one again Large,Loud and Neutral.
So far Dr Geddes design seems close to what I want but I have general doubts about the neutral part of "large,loud and neutral" when it comes to pro drivers covering large frequency ranges.
Please do not disparage pro drivers.
They can be more neutral sounding than many other drivers.
Equally they can add unwanted colouration.
As can any drive unit, no matter for what use it was intended.
I assure you, the B&C units that Dr. Geddes uses are certainly monitor quality.
I could not say that some JBLs are neutral sounding.
Please do not make such sweeping generalizations.
They can be more neutral sounding than many other drivers.
Equally they can add unwanted colouration.
As can any drive unit, no matter for what use it was intended.
I assure you, the B&C units that Dr. Geddes uses are certainly monitor quality.
I could not say that some JBLs are neutral sounding.
Please do not make such sweeping generalizations.
holger honda said:
That is true of certain drivers that were intended from the outset to be used in small band situations, like horns.
However, the majority of PA companies use reflex subs and partially horn loaded tops. And the large amount of smaller setups use full reflex rigs, which have only two or three drivers covering 40-20K. There are many drivers optimized to cover the frequency range that Doctor Geddes sets his B&C to doing, as that range is very common for 1 15" woofer to be placed in between.
Compression drivers are another thing altogether, you can't really find compression drivers made exclusively for hifi use unless you count the Japanese ones which are in the multiple 1000 dollar range.
My advice is to pop over to lansingheritage forum, they have a lot of info on building such studio monitors and the drivers that you can use in them, using the JBLs which as you probably do know are quite 'rugged'. They call it the West Coast Sound.
Holger,
I don't know if this is what would work for you, but the Exodus Audio "Kepler" speaker will play very loud with very little distortion. As your room seems to have a fairly small floorplan these might work well, although at 85dB sensitivity they can use a bit of grunt, but they handle it well. The price is...well it's a bargain, IMHO.
Here's the link to the recent Soundstage! review:
http://www.soundstage.com/diwhy/diwhy200804.htm
Best Regards,
TerryO
I don't know if this is what would work for you, but the Exodus Audio "Kepler" speaker will play very loud with very little distortion. As your room seems to have a fairly small floorplan these might work well, although at 85dB sensitivity they can use a bit of grunt, but they handle it well. The price is...well it's a bargain, IMHO.
Here's the link to the recent Soundstage! review:
http://www.soundstage.com/diwhy/diwhy200804.htm
Best Regards,
TerryO
good idea
Thanks everyone.
I will look into the troels 3way and also check the lansingheritage site. I think that even though 2way are a more accessable option and there certanly are many promising designs out there ,I just dont see moust of them being able to take the abuse.
Just to give you an idea Im hearing distortion out of the adire 10.1 Im running currently.
The 2.5 way offered by Zaph is also a good contender but neither the tower nor the centerchannel option will work for me,I need a more boxy shape of the cabinet.
Thanks everyone.
I will look into the troels 3way and also check the lansingheritage site. I think that even though 2way are a more accessable option and there certanly are many promising designs out there ,I just dont see moust of them being able to take the abuse.
Just to give you an idea Im hearing distortion out of the adire 10.1 Im running currently.
The 2.5 way offered by Zaph is also a good contender but neither the tower nor the centerchannel option will work for me,I need a more boxy shape of the cabinet.
There are many options you can go with at your price range. The old standards used to be the TAD 15" drivers with a TAD compression driver. That will get you out of your price range, but you can do better for less money than that. We have had people upgrading TAD drivers with the Lambda TD drivers with very good results.
A single TD12M or TD15M will reach levels in the mid 120's down to below 50Hz. As you are using this for monitoring at a specific location the off axis response is not nearly as critical. The TD15M is quite flat all the way up to 4KHz as you can see here:
this allows you quite a few options for the rest of the system as you are not limited to needing a small midrange when you don't need the off axis response. You can mate to a large ribbon tweeter like the fountek NeoPro5i, Raal 140-15, Aurum Cantus, etc at 2KHz with good results which we do in this MTM monitor here which is a great proven design now:
You can also mate to a compression driver on a waveguide, although there aren't a lot of good ones out there. The DDS had promise, but after the results we had on the 2 we received, I can't suggest them. Still after almost 2 months we haven't received any new ones and no response from DDS directly. The 18sound XT1086 seems to be the only viable, readily available option right now.
The 8" coax as we used in the monitors below is also an option. If you want a proven design, you could build something like the top sections we did for Nick Barnett.
You can see the full thread here on the build:
http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=701
This system used 4 15" drivers in a room which is very similar in size to what you have, to be able to reach levels of 120dB down as far as 10hz or so. With the dual 10" drivers per side you can easily still reach levels in the 120's down to 30hz.
Greg at Phatplanet Studios posted up a couple in progress pics of the dual TD12M's with the NeoPro5i ribbon in this thread here as well. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1035126&page=15
That entire thread is about a high efficiency 3way system and there are several options that could become the monitor you need. We started doing these custom monitors like the ones you see for Nick Barnett above as you can easily get more performance than things like the Genelec 1037's for much less cost.
For what you're doing you really need high efficiency and a system that is nearly indestructible.
John
A single TD12M or TD15M will reach levels in the mid 120's down to below 50Hz. As you are using this for monitoring at a specific location the off axis response is not nearly as critical. The TD15M is quite flat all the way up to 4KHz as you can see here:
this allows you quite a few options for the rest of the system as you are not limited to needing a small midrange when you don't need the off axis response. You can mate to a large ribbon tweeter like the fountek NeoPro5i, Raal 140-15, Aurum Cantus, etc at 2KHz with good results which we do in this MTM monitor here which is a great proven design now:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
You can also mate to a compression driver on a waveguide, although there aren't a lot of good ones out there. The DDS had promise, but after the results we had on the 2 we received, I can't suggest them. Still after almost 2 months we haven't received any new ones and no response from DDS directly. The 18sound XT1086 seems to be the only viable, readily available option right now.
The 8" coax as we used in the monitors below is also an option. If you want a proven design, you could build something like the top sections we did for Nick Barnett.
You can see the full thread here on the build:
http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=701
This system used 4 15" drivers in a room which is very similar in size to what you have, to be able to reach levels of 120dB down as far as 10hz or so. With the dual 10" drivers per side you can easily still reach levels in the 120's down to 30hz.
Greg at Phatplanet Studios posted up a couple in progress pics of the dual TD12M's with the NeoPro5i ribbon in this thread here as well. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1035126&page=15
That entire thread is about a high efficiency 3way system and there are several options that could become the monitor you need. We started doing these custom monitors like the ones you see for Nick Barnett above as you can easily get more performance than things like the Genelec 1037's for much less cost.
For what you're doing you really need high efficiency and a system that is nearly indestructible.
John
John_E_Janowitz said:
Hi,
This looks insteresting. What is the xover point and slope of this speaker?
However, I'm afraid the ribbon tweeter might get interferences from the nearby 2 big ports. I mean, the strong air flow might excite the fragile ribbon. Does it have any problem in the real case?
And have you seen any similar design with 15"ers?
CLS said:
In the final design we actually did move the ports to above and below the 10" drivers. The big issue was diffraction off the ports next to the tweeter. The following was the measured response of the tweeter, no xover. You can see in the dark blue curve, with the ports open, there is a lot of goofy stuff going on from 1500hz to 4000hz.
The light blue is with foam blocks next to the tweeter to absorb those effects. Yellow is with the ports actually blocked.Things end up very flat from 1500hz to 7000hz then. I ended up doing this system with active xover. Crossed 24dB at 1800hz. Three parametric bands were used to pull down the bumps at 1KHz, 9.2KHz and 17KHz as well.
We've had some people using the same tweeter with a single TD15M with good results. For an MTM type enclosure, we have done these:
Two TD15M apollo's with the BMS 1.4" coax compression driver on the 18sound XT1464 horn. We have a local guy using them for his sound company and doing outdoor shows up to a couple thousand people with them. This is the response of the pair of the TD15M's only at 2m away with mic height centered with the compression driver:
John
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