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Old 23rd July 2008, 02:50 AM   #11
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Thanks all for great (and funny too) suggestions.
I don't quite listen to music very loud all the time, but sometimes I just feel like doing so. My car with Mark Levinson audio stuff serves well for that purpose, clean and loud and fast sound without any distortion.

But you know I only do that for a short period time, and seldomly.

Then why did I ask this question when I can just go for a driving for short time?
Not only the car audio gives very high SPL, but even at a lower volume, the sound quality is something I really like. I think (I might be wrong) it is related to the shape (no parallel walls) and the material (mostly sound absorbing yet some reflection from windows) of the cabin, also proximity of speaker units to my ears.
Thus I'm thinking of imitating the cabin in my room.

What about near field monitors with decent subwoofer(s)?

Thanks

Doug
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Old 23rd July 2008, 06:29 AM   #12
bastek is offline bastek  United States
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There is nothing natural on the sound of car audio. No imaging or sound stage. You can get clean loud and fast sound with no distortion with headphones. And a slamming audio chair for bass.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 10:58 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by bastek
There is nothing natural on the sound of car audio. No imaging or sound stage. You can get clean loud and fast sound with no distortion with headphones. And a slamming audio chair for bass.

Yes, the biggest shortcomings of car audio is the lack of imaging and sound stage.
But also the last thing I care about is imaging and sound stage. I really don't care where the violins coming from Beethoven symphony 5, or how forward or backward of stage Nora Jones is singing.
I sometimes go to live music. Yes imaging and sound stage matters (and they are there, of course) for the live performance because I see where the violin is and where Nora Jones is, with my eyes.
I only care about imaging and soundstage of reproduced music when it is from music DVD with screen.

I have a nice headphone system but it lacks those sound pressure I can feel.

thanks

Doug
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Old 23rd July 2008, 01:04 PM   #14
MaVo is offline MaVo  Germany
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i may oversimplify a little with this, but it should work:

bass in car audio is so smooth because of the absence of room modes, since the car is too small and leaky to have severe modes. it is strong, because the sub only has to work in a small volume.

to get this feeling in a real room you have to do two things.

1) scale up the woofer, since it has to work in a bigger room. usually, 12 inch woofers should make enough spl for most needs.
2) make the room response smooth, just like in the car. this one is tricky, since you cant make the room as small as a car. the easiest (only works in a rectangle room) way is to use two identical subwoofers. put the first in the middle of one wall. put the second on the opposing wall, also in the middle. feed the same signal to both woofers, so that they work not in stereo but in mono. this should give quite a smooth response. if it isnt satisfying, you could try to put the woofers into diagonally opposing room corners.

crossover at around 80hz with 24db/oct active sub amp. depending on the kind of music you hear a lower frequency limit of about 40hz may be enough. most kinds of dance oriented music have no important content below 40hz.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 01:17 PM   #15
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Mavo

Thanks 100x for the nice info. That's very practical something I can try (not shrinking down my rooms or listening to the music mostly in the bathrooms )

I got one question. I don't remember pretty well (it was before I learned how to use del.icio.us and save bookmarks from any computer), but I read from somewhere that bass that matters most for the "slam" to the body is somewhere in 100 - 200 Hz range. So not only the subwoofers but also the main speakers themselves play important role here.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Doug
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Old 23rd July 2008, 04:26 PM   #16
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Hi,

Bass Slam needs 3 things :
high volume, good bass extension, good transient response.

I have heard this sort of bass in a car system I tuned, the bass was
visceral and smooth, but unfortunately the sort of levels where you
would need to be considerably larger than any of your neighbours ....

Bass in rooms is a different kettle of fish, natural sounding
deep bass at modest levels I'd suggest is more satisfying
than an occasional dip into unnatural disco level madness.

The above has nothing to do with high SPL speakers, it does relate
to high volume displacement in the deep bass. The deeper you want
to go the more displacement you need. Further up it could be very
loud but that is not the point, the displacement is used for extension.

/sreten.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 04:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by sreten
Hi,

Bass Slam needs 3 things :
high volume, good bass extension, good transient response.

I have heard this sort of bass in a car system I tuned, the bass was
visceral and smooth, but unfortunately the sort of levels where you
would need to be considerably larger than any of your neighbours ....

Bass in rooms is a different kettle of fish, natural sounding
deep bass at modest levels I'd suggest is more satisfying
than an occasional dip into unnatural disco level madness.

The above has nothing to do with high SPL speakers, it does relate
to high volume displacement in the deep bass. The deeper you want
to go the more displacement you need. Further up it could be very
loud but that is not the point, the displacement is used for extension.

/sreten.

Sreten,
Thanks a lot for the informative reply.
So if we go back to my original question, is there any one type of speaker that are (generally, statistically, whatever) accepted to be good for that purpose? I'm just wondering my knowledge I got from somewhere (probably wrong) that closed box 3-way design with 12" or 15" woofer is good for this (think about Cello Stradivari Legend).

Doug
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Old 23rd July 2008, 06:14 PM   #18
MaVo is offline MaVo  Germany
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The slam in the chest is around 80hz i think, maybe 70 if you are a big guy. You could google the resonance frequencies of your body parts and see for yourself. As the frequency goes down, quite funny places can be in resonance. Basslines lie around 40-80hz for typical dance music like techno, dnb, house etc. Below this are mostly special effects in movies or experimental music.

But like Sreten says, chances are, that your neighbours will complain before you really feel body resonances. Still, bass from speakers is alot more satisfying than bass from headphones, even at moderate levels.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 06:33 PM   #19
wg_ski is offline wg_ski  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doug Kim


I sometimes go to live music. Yes imaging and sound stage matters (and they are there, of course) for the live performance because I see where the violin is and where Nora Jones is, with my eyes.

Doug
She's coming from the PA, and it's mixed in mono. Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them. The same can be said for the ears.

Vey few of us ever really listen to "live" that is, unamplified music anymore. Except for an occasional marching band.
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Old 23rd July 2008, 07:10 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by wg_ski


She's coming from the PA, and it's mixed in mono. Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them. The same can be said for the ears.

Vey few of us ever really listen to "live" that is, unamplified music anymore. Except for an occasional marching band.

The latest live music attendance for me was "Progressive Nation" featuring Dream Theatre and bunch of death metal bands, and imaging and sound staging couldn't be even thought of since I blocked my ears with tissues not to damage them.

The other time when I was at some kind of modern opera performance, at the back seat, it sounded like a mono Gramophone.

I know there are people whose ears are so sensitive so they can even pinpoint where the 1st violin and 2nd violin are from NY Phil, not me. I just don't care and I mostly don't face toward speakers while the music is playing.

Doug
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