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Old 20th July 2008, 02:27 PM   #21
cuibono is offline cuibono  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by otto88
cuibono

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It would depend on how extended your upper range hearing is.


I don't know if it is just a matter of possible hearing loss - I'm guessing that there is something in the electronics reducing the quality of detail, particularly in the highs. 22 opamps in the signal path? Pioneer cd player? We'll just have to see...
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Old 21st July 2008, 09:29 AM   #22
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One of the unexpected surprises of my Orions is that the treble *does not* stand out and scream at you like many hifi tweeters do. You know, those metal domes that can be heard when walking into a room when no music is playing, resonating brightly to system noise.

You mentioned in (15) that you miss something in the Orion's treble that you hear when performing, cuibono. I wonder if this is something that really makes it onto recordings very often? The only recording that I have that might capture what you're talking about is Nickel Creek's eponymous album, recorded very close up AFAICT. As for the Plutos not sounding as good as the Orions: there's only so much you can do with inexpensive drivers and their inherent limitations. SL squeezed a lot out of them for sure.

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Old 21st July 2008, 10:22 AM   #23
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14) Absolutely quiet - particularly at seat - with ear to midrange/tweeter, I can hear tiny hiss - strange, as active circuitry is unshielded, and the same circuits in my Plutos had a large hiss problem - no 60Hz hum at all [Later I found I could detect a tiny hiss at the listening seat, but the Orions still seem especially quiet - I think this impression was due to how very quickly they could become loud. There was something special about this I can't quiet describe.]
How does shielding help against hiss?

Hiss might just as well come from one of the sources and is not necessarily part of the Orions active circuitry.

Hum is a design flaw that has become rare even in cheap equipment. I haven't come across it in years except for a few cheapo musicians or PC active speakers and badly done DIY equipment. Why would you even mention hum at that quality level? Is that the same situation like with car electronics that work reliably in cheap Japanese and Korean cars, but always seem to fail in the world's best and most expensive ones?
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Old 21st July 2008, 10:29 AM   #24
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Zaphs site is great - open up a couple of these and do a little comparison of midrange drivers. Linkwitz first brought the Orions into this world circa 2002, I believe, and a lot of the work he put into them was an extension of his work on the Phonenix, in the 90's. So it is possible, there are newer drivers, particularly drivers with lower distortion. The mid in the orions is the Seas W22EX001, and he uses it from 120 to 1440 Hz, and it costs about $200 each. In Zaphs applet, compare it to say, the Usher 8945P (at $110 each) - the Usher has about the same 2nd and 5th harmonic levels, but the 3rd and 4th are dramatically reduced! That seem golden to me, particularly at half the cost. [/B]
I am not sure your comparison of Zaphs 6.5-7" with W22EX001 are appropriate, as the latter is a significantly larger midwoofer: you're going to need this in a Orion-like OB, otherwise you might want to crossover higher in frequency to avoid exscessive excursion. This does not invalidate your idea of an alternative midwoofer, of course.

Still a larger midwoofer seems to be a better choice: even if it forces a low crossover point for the tweeter - this, in turn, ensures less forward/backward radiation assymetry due to the woofer's basket and magnet (which worsens as frequency increases)

Maybe one day Zaph is going to test larger-than-7" woofers.
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Old 21st July 2008, 11:07 AM   #25
Eva is offline Eva  Spain
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Controlled directivity (by means of dipoles or horns), phase/group-delay matching in multi-way systems and equalization of driver/enclosure/ear abnormalities are the main requirements for natural sound reproduction.

The lack of bass "impact" in most systems is due to room reflections resulting in gentle mid-bass cancellation at the listening position. This has nothing to do with F3, most cancellation arises in the 50Hz to 500Hz range.

BTW: Swapping exotic capacitors, resistors, op-amps and wires is a big waste of money and time. Building speakers is much better
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Old 21st July 2008, 12:28 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by cuibono
...The plutos are special speakers - they are very very smooth sounding. SL has changed the woofer driver since I built mine, and moved the f3 from 60hz to 40hz, which is a big improvement, in my opinion. I'd postulate that compared to any other 2-way speaker, the Plutos would hold their own. I have reservations about them, but that is only comparing the to other larger, more complex and expensive speakers...
I'm looking for information about building a passive Pluto - I'll look more on the Pluto User's Group...
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Where did you see the Aurum Cantis on Zaphs site?
Here: http://www.zaphaudio.com/5.5test/

What I find exciting about it is it's combination of very smooth FR, FS 35, and sensitivity of 90 db. +/- 5 mm xmax is decent, and I like the 7.0 Re also.

Zaph's comments:
"Comments: This mineral filled poly cone driver from Aurum Cantus has an extremely smooth response curve. While there is a breakup around 5kHz, it is smooth on both sides and easily controlled with a notch filter. Build quality is excellent. The voice coil has venting under the spider, something not quite common at this price point. There is a 3rd order peak in HD at 1.8kHz which will be audible on some content but probably not noticable most of the time. One negative for many DIY'ers is the squared off frame, near impossible to countersink with normal tools. Tested May 2006."
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Old 21st July 2008, 01:32 PM   #27
tnargs is offline tnargs  Australia
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Default Re: My week with the Orions, or 'why do we bother'

Quote:
Originally posted by cuibono
Recently, I had the good fortune to both be wedded, and to spend a week long honeymoon at Siegfred Linkwitz's Honeymoon Cabin on the Sea Ranch....At said ranch ...there were a pair of his Orion+ speakers .... I kept a log of notes taken over the first couple of days of listening to the Orions.....<<big snip>>
Dude, are you still married??

P.S. I have auditioned the Orion+ and was somewhat underwhelmed. I think the whole "sprayorama" dipole/omni thing is inherently inaccurate, and it shows. But it is a very pleasant sound effect.

P.P.S. I still bother.
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Old 21st July 2008, 03:18 PM   #28
cuibono is offline cuibono  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by pacificblue


How does shielding help against hiss?

For both the plutos and orions, the ASP circuit boards are not fully mounted in metal enclosures. In fact the pluto has no enclosure the way SL designed it. My plutos had noticable hiss and hum at the listening position, so I added a full metal enclosure, and the hiss went way down.
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Old 21st July 2008, 03:23 PM   #29
cuibono is offline cuibono  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by bzfcocon


I am not sure your comparison of Zaphs 6.5-7" with W22EX001 are appropriate <snip>

Maybe one day Zaph is going to test larger-than-7" woofers.

I totally agree with you, it had crossed my mind that the Seas is an 8" while the rest are 7" or smaller. Excursion and directivity would change. All things to consider...

I too hope Zaph will start working with larger drivers sometime.
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Old 21st July 2008, 03:25 PM   #30
cuibono is offline cuibono  United States
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Default Re: Re: My week with the Orions, or 'why do we bother'

Quote:
Originally posted by tnargs


Dude, are you still married??


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