Yamaha NS1000 crossover Tweaks

kouiky said:
I've never found the NS-1000M to sound hard or bright. If they sound screamy or have sharp peaks in their response it may be an indicator to a problem. B]



I totally agree. I have an ex-Swedish Radio pair, scruffy looking cabinets, but after a re-cap of the x-overs and cleaning of L-pads, yhey absolutely maych anythig very expensive out there.
Oh, they are not bass light, they reproduce what they are fed.
Recently changed to an Arcam CD-player, and they woke up.
Cheers.
 
Jozua said:
However one needs to be realistic. Technology has moved on and 20 years down the line most audio equipment is simply better. One simply needs to make that mind shift- that is if your pocket can afford it.

If you know a bit about loudspeaker design you'll know that there is very little that is new in driver design. The NS1000's were state of the art in their day. Even today very few commercial drivers are built to their standard. The design principles are ageless, and even some new cone materials are only alternative means to the same end that is achieved by the beryllium diaphragms. In any case, technology will not of itself assure good quality product, though it does make it more accessible (to the designers, not necessarily the end user).
 
I have to disagree with some of the above comments. As excellent a speaker as it is, in my opinion, it is far from perfect especially in standard form.

The Yamaha compared to the Quad ESL57 is tonally lean especially in the midrange. This also gives the impression of the top end sounding more prominent. I have had to work hard to get it to come even close to the Quad ESL57,which is a gold standard in the opinion of many for midrange realism.

You only appreciate what is missing from the bottom end when it is augmented. Again without measurements and on a purely subjective basis only, to me the bottom end appears to fall a little short of full extension and loudness as I hear it in live concerts. I do agree it is still good in standard form and is probably enough for most depending on the type of music listened to.

Having said all that I believe all our comments need to take into account the fact that we all express our opinions within the context of how we each individually perceive the sound we hear. Unless we all agreed,understood and accepted on a universal basis what the most realistic presentation of sound was, there will always be wide variations in our perceived qualities of any Hi Fi component.
 
Shaun

One needs to distinguish between nostalgia and common sense.

Point me to a good sounding NS1000 implementation and I will be all ears. If not, it remains a well executed Japanese era loudspeaker to me.

The current life in the NS1000 most likely lies in it relative low cost for what it offers. However as you yourself have now painfully discovered that when a driver blows- you have to be prepared to dig deep in your pockets or be faced with a "new" set of spare divers to experiment with. Maybe it is best to make that mind shift and move on?


Regards

Jozua
 
Jozua

I dont know if this helps with the argument or not but IMHO my previous OWNED speakers which the tweaked Yamaha NS1000 is superior to, are as follows.

(Please note these are modern speakers and very high end. I have been fortunate enough to be able to afford such speakers in the recent past,its a shame it took me so long to discover DIY)

Avantgarde DUO's
AudioNote ANE Silver Signature
Audio Physic Avanti
Harbeth 30
QUAD ESL 57 refurbished and stacked.... and still one of my favourites
Rogers LS3/5A
and many others i cannot remember off hand
 
Jozua said:
However as you yourself have now painfully discovered that when a driver blows- you have to be prepared to dig deep in your pockets or be faced with a "new" set of spare divers to experiment with. Maybe it is best to make that mind shift and move on?

I'm not sure what pain you are referring to. I have not blown any drivers. I am in fact looking for a pair of Yamaha mids to build my ultimate 3-way from.

My assessment of the Yamaha's performance is not from nostalgia. I owned a pair fairly recently, for less than a year. When I sold it and replaced it with a fairly decent loudspeaker (Quadral Wotan MkV), my 7 year old son complained that he did not like the new speaker.

Again, I say, read the thread before you jump to conclusions.
 
Audiojoy


I auditioned a stock NS1000 which I take is the sonic norm for 99% of all NS1000 users.

You give no indication of what amplification you used with your speakers.

The bottom line is that the stock NS1000 I auditioned on a fairly upmarked setup did not impress me. No amount of internet correspondence is going to alter my initial impression.


Shaun


When you finish your project please let me know. I would love to be proven wrong.

Best of luck with your search.


Jozua
 
The amplification i have been using throughout the Yamaha quad and most of the other speakers lives were valve. The yamaha's in my opinion only sound at their best with valve amplifiers.

Amps used were

audionote p4 silver signature 300b mono's

jadis JA80 highly modified
Atmasphere otl
fouriere otl
etc.

preamps
were all valve also audio note m5 jadis jps3 valab pre etc.

My personal preference at the present time for speakers is no longer the NS1000's. i have been experimenting with OB see

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142186
 
Audionote


I had a short love affair with a Radford StA25 but it was a speedy divorce when it did not live up to my expectations. Valve pre-amps I can live with but in my opinion valve power amps just do not have the power or dynamics of live sound at the frequency extremes.

Your new project looks very interesting.

There is so much more pleasure gained from recreating good DIY sound at the fraction of the cost of the commercial products. This is especially relevant in South Africa where freight costs, import duties and taxes have the ability to transform what is considered a middle of the road product in Europe into a costly item in S-Africa.

You guys do not realise how lucky you are.

Regards

Jozua
 
Audiojoy

I still love my "high-end" equipment and there are certain advantages of buying high end products so I would not discount the benefit of using high end equipment. Especially when used as a norm to evaluate a DIY project.

I suspect that your OB design might sound drastically different if used with a top notch transistor amp. If so it possibly means that the speaker works well with certain colourations found with certain equipment. The same rule most likely applies to when a NS 1000 setup sounds good. The skill lies in finding the correct match.

When I am finished with my Aleph X, three unfinished speaker projects and Krell clone I will be ready to look at your OB design.


Regards


JH
 
Jozua said:
Kouiky


I fully understand that some in time one develops a certain affinity for certain equipment. I for one enjoy tweaking old equipment with better replacement parts and in most instances it usually seems to sounds better afterwards. In fact I am sometimes stunned by how good old equipment can really sound. Finding these hidden treasures is what DIY audio is about.

However one needs to be realistic. Technology has moved on and 20 years down the line most audio equipment is simply better. One simply needs to make that mind shift- that is if your pocket can afford it.

Jozua

No attachment or attraction to an inanimate object, objectively the NS-1000M I've tested and measured was found to be the most precise overall of all the speakers I've encountered. Several other institutions which include BBC also found the NS-1000M to by far exceed the most highly regarded loudspeakers available in accuracy. Audio driver technology has virtually not advanced in over 20 years, there is little government funding in that sector. Private sector companies simply change a diaphragm material or motor structure shape and call it advanced while there may be no improvement and the principle technology remains the same. I've only encountered four drivers that came close to or exceeded one or two parameters of those used in the NS-1000M within their range, one was diamond from Thiel & Partner, and the one that truly exceeded them exhibited much lower THD and faster settling among other parameters was conceived by the same designer as the NS-1000M drivers. I would venture to note that this one tweeter that by far exceeded the NS-1000M tweeter and mid is most likely the most sinuous accurate tweeter ever made with 0.04% average THD and good CSD, not even Thiel & Partner diamond tweeters match that one. While on the topic of diamond tweeters, the NS-1000M exhibits 20dB lower harmonic distortion in some areas of its bandwidth compared to the B&W 800D, which is more accurate than the previous Nautilus known as the "snail". That raised some eyebrows here about B&W claim to "the most accurate loudspeaker in the world", especially when other functions of the JA-suffix drivers are taken into account.

The woofers are a bit more complicated. Those in the NS-1000 series do not settle as fast as some newer and more expensive drivers and the first edition has very limited linear movement (≤2mm). But they have some of the lowest harmonics of any woofers produced including loudspeakers from Wilson Audio, Tannoy Prestige and MBL, most audio companies do not employ licensed Professional Engineers. I've worked in electromechanical and finite motor structure design. I was also Executive Technical Officer and Chief of Research and Design for an acoustic research and development company, I've seen and heard a few drivers and speakers and while some sound good it is because of their types of distortion, which is common. I would never stand up for a speaker and likewise it can't be denied that one does so well and sonically performs excellent when working right.

As for the set you have heard, its very much likely the drivers' leads are damaged from heat which induces noise, its commonplace and not visibly discernible from the exterior. I do hope this helps.
 
Kouiky

I am not so certain if a good technical measurement/drivers are a guarantee for good sound.

Subjectively speaking I have heard better bass definition from Scanspeak Revelator units and much better midrange from SEAS Excel units. Nor have I seen any NS1000 drivers used by other manufacturers in “No-holds-barred” audio systems.

How can a NS1000 owner check the diver leads? Hopefully my listening impressions can still be proven wrong.

Regards


Jozua
 
Measurements relay each characteristic of an acoustic wave or point source and how closely it replicates the original electrical signal received, and what sound will reach our ears and why it is received or heard the way it is. In other words if you were local I could show you why speakers of choice sound the way they do. I very much understand the ease with which one may regard to measurements as bearing little relevance, but that is because most often people haven't worked with this type of equipment and only have access to that which can measure several simple functions of acoustic propagation phenomenon with limited definition. In for example in regard to CSD the average audio manufacturer only measures to -24dB or -48dB, maybe more and is limited to 1/24th - 1/48th octave definition with little accuracy, whist we measure to -160dB and 1/108 octave definition or higher dependent on magnification needed. What they view as a mode or ringing we can project as a multitude of individual sinuous oscillations over the relevant time domain and how the diaphragm moves through Laser Acoustic (surface) Wave Spectrometry. Manger apparently uses Doppler Vibrometrics which has a similar purpose.

I've heard better bass definition as well from electrostatics, its a combined function of many parameters and for simplicity reasons while THD is low, the settling time of the NS woofer could be improved and this very much in combination with the crossover are the most prominent contributors to this woofer's sound and slightly subdued response to small signal transients with an increase in frequency. The woofer in the NS-1000M is subjectively audibly active to 900Hz and does mask the mid-range with its own slower acoustic decay as expected. With that said, the woofer is one of the finest sounding made. I'm familiar with some Excel line Seas and Revelator units and they exhibit their own unique types of distortions inherent in their manufacturers design and in the materials used, some are quite good such as the Seas branded Millennium "tweeter". Some of these drivers will enhance details through their own harmonic distortions or resonant characteristics such as the R2904 7000. In regard to audio it's not always a bad situation as this can offset something else a driver does and make it subjectively sound good, though it is the original signal. A consideration is most every time one function in improved, another may be adversely affected.
The drivers are used in an ultra-fi system but only one pair was made as it was designed from the last serial NS-2000 drivers from Japan before the GFD-1 was released. No other companies use them because they are a Yamaha only proprietary design, and as of this time there is some legitimate complication in the use and distribution of the materials.

Repair to the drivers will require disassembly if its indeed the problem.
 
Hi

I have had the opportunity to listen to the same speakers again, this time fed by an Audio Research CD player and DAC. This time there was a massive improvement in overall sound quality.

Very warm sound and easy on the ear and quite amazing for a 30 old speaker. I think I can now understand why people love it. The midrange was very good.

Negative aspects were a lack of deep bass and a somewhat splashy tweeter.

Regards


Jozua