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Old 2nd July 2008, 10:38 PM   #11
Salas is online now Salas  Greece
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Quote:
Originally posted by tinitus
No mention of Earl Gedlees ESP kits ?
Then the suggestion would be ''add 6 subwoofers and earplugs''. Best HT choice.
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Old 4th July 2008, 04:26 AM   #12
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Pjpoes,

You should go and read about these Elsinore speakers before you make any decisions. THey are very well thought out and just about what you are looking for.

http://www.customanalogue.com/elsino...nore_index.htm
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Old 5th July 2008, 06:04 AM   #13
pjpoes is offline pjpoes  United States
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Ah thats a good one, I forgot about the Elsinore. I have read the design many a time too, and thought it was a well developed diy speaker design. Efficient too. The drivers are all pretty high value, low distortion, smooth response, well made, consistent, yet not as pricey as Scan-Speak or Focal.
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Old 5th July 2008, 03:30 PM   #14
navin is offline navin  India
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Default Re: Getting good Efficiency and smooth response, to 3-4-5-way, or not

Quote:
Originally posted by pjpoes

I much prefer the sound of drivers like those from Focal and Scan-speak, to drivers from JBL, Eminence, or B&C.

and there seems to be a common opinion that the 18W midbass doesn't have the most natural sounding midrange.
You seem to have heard SS drivers as well as those fron JBL etc.. so why go by other opinions. Very often different people have different taste.

I have used the 18W8546 and 18W8545 and while I prefered the bass of the 8546 I also prefered the mid of the 8545. Granted in my case the 8545 was a MT with a 9700 while the 8546 were a MT with a 9500 and MTM (I had 6 8546) with a 9900. Above 100Hz these woofers were very good for their time (early 90s) the game obviosuly has moved on but I expect the best of SS/Seas/Focal to continue to be pretty good.

Quote:
Originally posted by RobWells

I used 2 x scanspeak 8565-01's per side for bass and they were brilliant. Could be run down to 40Hz for dvd no probs. Any lower they did not have enough output. Most home theater setups cross at 80Hz so that is not an issue. They will shame most subs for quality in the 40 - 120Hz region, they are that good.

If I was going your route I'd build an mtm top with maybe 5" mids. This would be crossed to 2 x 10" drivers running 80Hz - 300Hz.
Rob, if the 8565-01 can be used down to 40Hz for dvd they should be good enough for most music as well. Movies have so much more low frequency content. So why not use the 2x8565-01 (or current model 26cm woofers like the 8861) for the bass and sub duty?

BTW what was the box volume for your 2x8565-01 sub? I remember the construction some time back.

lastly why MTM? For the top end (above 200Hz) I think maybe a push-push mid or even a OB mid could be considerd.

pj, i do believe that to exploit 30Hz-20kHz with accuracy, low distortion, and adequate SPL a good 3 way might be your best bet. Focus on choosing the ciritical mid first and then work your way around to matching bass and hf drivers.

one option is a pair of (push-push) 15-16cm midwoofers from SS/Focal/Seas the other would be a 17-20cm widerange from Fostex/Visaton/Supravox etc.

lastly one could simplify and build a Jim Griffin JX92/G2si mated to a sub.
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Old 5th July 2008, 08:00 PM   #15
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Hi Navin, How are you? - don't see you around much these days.

From memory the cabs were 120L each. There's no way 4 x 10" scans would have enough output for home theater subwoofer duty. From my own experience at least. They worked well crossed at 40Hz.

I suggested mtm as my single 5" scanspeak didn't have enough output on dvd's at reference levels (high passed at 24dB/oct at 250Hz)
Again from my own experience with the drivers.

Personally I use horns now right through the range so I was just posting some experiences I had building my own 3 way conventional speakers with the types of drivers pjpoes wants to use.


Cheers,
Rob.
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Old 5th July 2008, 09:14 PM   #16
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Default Re: Getting good Efficiency and smooth response, to 3-4-5-way, or not

Quote:
Originally posted by pjpoes
I much prefer the sound of drivers like those from Focal and Scan-speak, to drivers from JBL, Eminence, or B&C.
Is this comment based upon hearing complete commercial systems from these manufacturers, or well developed designs using their drivers?
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Old 5th July 2008, 10:03 PM   #17
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Default Re: Re: Getting good Efficiency and smooth response, to 3-4-5-way, or not

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Originally posted by Brett
Is this comment based upon hearing complete commercial systems from these manufacturers, or well developed designs using their drivers?
..Exactly.
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Old 7th July 2008, 05:22 AM   #18
navin is offline navin  India
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Quote:
Originally posted by RobWells
Hi Navin, How are you? - don't see you around much these days.

From memory the cabs were 120L each. There's no way 4 x 10" scans would have enough output for home theater subwoofer duty. From my own experience at least. They worked well crossed at 40Hz.

I suggested mtm as my single 5" scanspeak didn't have enough output on dvd's at reference levels (high passed at 24dB/oct at 250Hz)
Again from my own experience with the drivers.

Personally I use horns now right through the range so I was just posting some experiences I had building my own 3 way conventional speakers with the types of drivers pjpoes wants to use.
I have been around just in the Tubes section. Glad someone noticed my absence. BTW that beer is still chilling and the Tandoor is still hot, so when are you coming down to visit the colonies? :-)

120L ouch. I think that is waht I used for my dual 12" (Audio Concepts) subs. Given that we have a small aprtment 4 of these 12" subs are more than enough for HT. I assume 4 x 10" would be too.

I agree that a single 5" would not be adequate but I think a push-push might be a better option than MTM. You sitll gt the output of 2 woofers inthe bass region.

Which horns are you using?
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Old 7th July 2008, 07:57 PM   #19
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
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I haven´t heard a dome tweeter that doesn´t compress at peak levels yet. AMTs are better in this respect. Have a look at the Eton Duetta kit (available at lautsprechershop.de). The enclosure design isn´t simple either, but easier than Troels´. There are related compact speakers that can be used as center/surround.
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Old 7th July 2008, 08:32 PM   #20
pjpoes is offline pjpoes  United States
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I have heard both completed systems from companies like JBL and Tannoy, as well as worked with their drivers. I recently heard the K2 and Everest from Jbl, and while they are impressively smooth I think they utterly lack a soundstage. As for Tannoy, I heard the Churchill's at Audio Classics in Vestal a while back, I really didn't like them at all. I've heard a few others, and I think its the concentric design, but they just sounded colored to me. These are, of course, way out of my price range, and probably out of my ability to recreate. I've heard just about every Klipsch ever made and find them colored, often harsh, and often lacking in a sound stage as well. Those few which presented a decent sound stage usually lacked depth and specificity. I won't deny having a bias here, but I know I am not alone in this view. The only high efficiency horn based speaker I have ever heard which even remotely changed my mind was the Everest, and I simply can't afford them.

If people think that copying them is possible, I'm all for some idea's. My problem is I don't think I can get the horns they use, and I didn't see any commercially available compression drivers or horn mouths which looked close to the Everest design. When I take measurements of these, they are often so bad I can't make a smooth crossover for them. In fact, you can find the crossover schematic for the Everest on JBL's website, and its about the most complicated crossover I have ever seen, which I'm sure is to compensate for problems inherit in horn systems and lightweight cones.

Another problem with most of these designs is that the Horizontal dispersion is often very poor in the midband area. It's because they use such large woofers to handle the midband. A 15" woofer simply will not, by the laws of physics governing sound, have as good a dispersion as a 6" woofer at say 300hz or 500hz. I have some measurements we took of the JBL system averages across 30 degrees horizontally, and basically you get a trough in the midrange area. This means a narrow sweet spot. Now I know a lot of people don't consider a sound stage important, they consider it an artificially created illusion. Dynamics might be more important, or frequency range, or whatever. For me however, the Sound stage is about the most important part of recreating the illusion of live music, and so this is very very important to me. Slim speakers, in my experience, sound stage better than than wider speakers, and often by a large margin.

While I appreciate the thoughts on predone kits, and I know my mention of the Troels implied that I was looking for predesigned ideas, I have the ability to design my own crossovers. While its a newly acquired skill that I am still honing, I have had success on 5 projects so far, and continue to hone this skill. My hope with this thread was to get some insight into how I might design my next project.
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