I'm trying to decide on a FR speaker project for a tube amp and one for a chip amp. It seems the most popular are Fostex and Audio Nirvana, at least in my price range. A pair of drivers, along with decent enclosure plans, can be had from either of those vendors for around $100. Outside of the FR concept, I'm also interested in Pi Speakers. Those of you with experience with any of these, will you provide me some input to help in this decision?
Thanks.
Mike
Thanks.
Mike
They all sound different but they are all great choices! Personally, i would choose either Fostex or Pi. AN seems to be a Fostex copyat. But i understand they do sound very good. Probably the Fostex will give you the most detailed mids and the Pi better bass and treble extension. Whichever you choose you will not be making a bad choice. Enjoy!
Speakers are a highly individual choice.
The Fostex speakers are generally better regarded than the AN, but this may be price prejudice, as I doubt many people have the opportunity for side-by-side comparison. Certainly you can buy slightly higher up the (AN) range for the same price and there are some larger types unavailable elsewhere. There are also some new cast-basket types.
I have a pair of AN 'Super 8's in 2.8cft enclosures. I drive these with a SI gen2 T-amp from a variety of sources including the TV.
Loads of volume and no desperate need for a sub. I think they're great, and it makes me want to laugh everytime I remember how little the whole lot cost both in money and in effort. An excellent stereo image. Ugly great MDF monkey coffins, tho. Not a lot of WAF.
You may find some suggestions offered regarding the design of the enclosures, and these may in fact result in improved performance, but again this is hard to evaluate. In most domestic listening environments the room is probably a more important factor.
w
The Fostex speakers are generally better regarded than the AN, but this may be price prejudice, as I doubt many people have the opportunity for side-by-side comparison. Certainly you can buy slightly higher up the (AN) range for the same price and there are some larger types unavailable elsewhere. There are also some new cast-basket types.
I have a pair of AN 'Super 8's in 2.8cft enclosures. I drive these with a SI gen2 T-amp from a variety of sources including the TV.
Loads of volume and no desperate need for a sub. I think they're great, and it makes me want to laugh everytime I remember how little the whole lot cost both in money and in effort. An excellent stereo image. Ugly great MDF monkey coffins, tho. Not a lot of WAF.
You may find some suggestions offered regarding the design of the enclosures, and these may in fact result in improved performance, but again this is hard to evaluate. In most domestic listening environments the room is probably a more important factor.
w
Godzilla said:
AN a fostex copycat?
I sure don't read it that way, they're doing 10"s and 12"s, they use phaseplugs, and have generally little in common with fostex drivers apart from being paper cones and meant to be 'full range'.
@ mikje:
Any of the three, like the zilla man says, are probably good choices. I've only worked with the fostex, and then, only a couple models, but I've heard many of them. The fostex ff65k in a BIB with a FT17H supertweeter (also fostex) could be one hell of a speaker.
Badman,
You mentioned a Fostex FF65K. I can't find that on the Madisound site. I can find an FF165K and an FF85K. Do you mean one of these? Do you run the tweeter in parallel (and is this then a 4 ohm speaker?) with the FR and what do you do for a crossover? Thanks for the input.
I'm leaning toward the FE127E in a Fonken floor-stander, but not yet fully decided. If I like the outcome, I'll be doing more. I'll be using a Hewlet-Packard tube stereo amp or a chipamp I've yet to order and build (probably from chipamp.com).
Thanks all for the input. I'm still open to more.
You mentioned a Fostex FF65K. I can't find that on the Madisound site. I can find an FF165K and an FF85K. Do you mean one of these? Do you run the tweeter in parallel (and is this then a 4 ohm speaker?) with the FR and what do you do for a crossover? Thanks for the input.
I'm leaning toward the FE127E in a Fonken floor-stander, but not yet fully decided. If I like the outcome, I'll be doing more. I'll be using a Hewlet-Packard tube stereo amp or a chipamp I've yet to order and build (probably from chipamp.com).
Thanks all for the input. I'm still open to more.
mikje said:
Oops! I meant the 165k.
The tweeter is run in parallel with a blocking capacitor, so it remains a nominal 8 ohm load, though with the rather low inductance, you're going to have a 6-7 ohm section of the high frequencies. High enough that it's low enough output to matter very little to the amp in terms of loading.
One might even use a simple 1st order series XO at 8k or thereabouts, with a little resistive pad (2-3 ohm range) on the tweeter. 2 ohms, 2uF, and .15mH would be a very good start.
I own Fostex Fe127e and AN12" at the moment. Honestly, they sound great together. One of each then volume up quite a bit on Fostex to get same SPL as AN. Okay, you would have to hear it.
If I were to buy only one pair again it would be HANDS DOWN the AN12". The Fostex get confused FAST. This is a jazz speaker and please hope the jazz has no electric bass or it will gag on the bass. The Fostex shouts at vocal frequencies, to forward for my taste. The Fostex has a dramatic break in however and the shout tones down a little, still shouty though. The plus side to the Fostex is that after break in it is more relaxing to listen to with the right music. Music it can handle. The Fostex REALLY needs a sub and I have heard over again it is hard to pair a sub with an FR speaker. Never tried so I cant comment on that personally though.
The AN is just fantastic. Right now I have a cheapy system. I am running an LM3886 with a 400VA 144,000uf supply from an unmodified Playstation 1 SCPH-1001. Its like heaven. I sincerely enjoy listening to this setup with the ANs and the bass is serious unlike many other FR speakers. No sub needed. I dont know what to say except that I am absolutely blown away everytime I listen. Its FANTASTIC and I highly recommend a PS1. Crazy as it seems this is a huge part of the wonderful sound in this system. Before on a Technics CDP the ANs sounded fantastic and full of control and very analytical. But almost to the point that you felt your shoulders kinda hunch up from it being very digital. The PS1 frees up the music, the soundstage JUMPED out at me first time I turned it on. Thing sound so real. Anywho, none of this would matter without the right speakers and the ANs are very very good.
Uriah
If I were to buy only one pair again it would be HANDS DOWN the AN12". The Fostex get confused FAST. This is a jazz speaker and please hope the jazz has no electric bass or it will gag on the bass. The Fostex shouts at vocal frequencies, to forward for my taste. The Fostex has a dramatic break in however and the shout tones down a little, still shouty though. The plus side to the Fostex is that after break in it is more relaxing to listen to with the right music. Music it can handle. The Fostex REALLY needs a sub and I have heard over again it is hard to pair a sub with an FR speaker. Never tried so I cant comment on that personally though.
The AN is just fantastic. Right now I have a cheapy system. I am running an LM3886 with a 400VA 144,000uf supply from an unmodified Playstation 1 SCPH-1001. Its like heaven. I sincerely enjoy listening to this setup with the ANs and the bass is serious unlike many other FR speakers. No sub needed. I dont know what to say except that I am absolutely blown away everytime I listen. Its FANTASTIC and I highly recommend a PS1. Crazy as it seems this is a huge part of the wonderful sound in this system. Before on a Technics CDP the ANs sounded fantastic and full of control and very analytical. But almost to the point that you felt your shoulders kinda hunch up from it being very digital. The PS1 frees up the music, the soundstage JUMPED out at me first time I turned it on. Thing sound so real. Anywho, none of this would matter without the right speakers and the ANs are very very good.
Uriah
I didnt know WHAT to do for a cabinet. There is nothing on DIY designed for a 12" driver with a VAS of 291liters. So I went with the design David Dicks sends with the driver.
http://picasaweb.google.com/udailey/AudioNirvanaSuper12Build
Its a bass reflex and it sounds great, but I have one regret.
If I had to do it all over again I would build it first from MDF exactly how he says to and then I would cover it with the plywood. Maybe much thinner ply though. I think the cabs would benefit from the extra stiffness of the MDF, but I didnt want to because one of our fellow DIYers has had cancer due to MDF fumes/dust and I dont want to be the next guy.
What I did was to just build it out of high quality 3/4 inch ply.
Reason why it needs the MDF is that right now it is a touch, smidge, boomy and I think MDF would give it that last bit of control on the super low bass.
LM3886 Drives these insanely loud to the point that I have only turned the volume up that loud one time just to see.
Uriah
http://picasaweb.google.com/udailey/AudioNirvanaSuper12Build
Its a bass reflex and it sounds great, but I have one regret.
If I had to do it all over again I would build it first from MDF exactly how he says to and then I would cover it with the plywood. Maybe much thinner ply though. I think the cabs would benefit from the extra stiffness of the MDF, but I didnt want to because one of our fellow DIYers has had cancer due to MDF fumes/dust and I dont want to be the next guy.
What I did was to just build it out of high quality 3/4 inch ply.
Reason why it needs the MDF is that right now it is a touch, smidge, boomy and I think MDF would give it that last bit of control on the super low bass.
LM3886 Drives these insanely loud to the point that I have only turned the volume up that loud one time just to see.
Uriah
Oh, if you build them you will want to measure the height of your ear from the floor at listening height. Then build the cabinet, or put on a stand, so that the center of the driver is an inch or two above your ear.
Thats why I built those stands. I had been hunching down to get the sweet spot and decided to build a stand but not sure how high. Got out my daughters building blocks and set the speakers on those. With my height and seated position they needed to be almost 5" off of the ground. Now the stand on the right houses my chip amp and power supply. So if you build stands thats a cool use for the extra enclosure you just made.
Uriah
Thats why I built those stands. I had been hunching down to get the sweet spot and decided to build a stand but not sure how high. Got out my daughters building blocks and set the speakers on those. With my height and seated position they needed to be almost 5" off of the ground. Now the stand on the right houses my chip amp and power supply. So if you build stands thats a cool use for the extra enclosure you just made.
Uriah
Uriah,
How big is your listening space? Right now, I have my "man cave" for most of my listening, about 15' X 12'. I might be moving them into a larger room, about 15 X 20, if I ever get around to finishing my basement. I'm wondering if the 10' or 8' might better suit my listening area.
Mike
How big is your listening space? Right now, I have my "man cave" for most of my listening, about 15' X 12'. I might be moving them into a larger room, about 15 X 20, if I ever get around to finishing my basement. I'm wondering if the 10' or 8' might better suit my listening area.
Mike
Mine is 15x30 and unfortunately I HAVE to sit only 9' away and am constrained to having them only 10' from each other. The distance between them is probably fine, but I would prefer to be back farther. However, I think you should bass your decision more on how much bass you want. Because if you go and buy a smaller speaker and you dont like the bass there is no getting more from it. I cant say that your situation is to small for the 12s because I dont really know. I do know that the couch comes up to my ears and that I prefer to not have it behind me when I am listening. I dont know if that is because it absorbs sound or if its because I like having that other 20' behind me.
I do know this, and I dont doubt it at all, if you build 12" ANs and pair them with the right amp its really gonna floor you how good they sound.
I am doing everything on the cheap at every opportunity and oddly its working into the best sounding system I have ever heard (except one 45 grand system back in 1987). I use an LM3886 chip amp with a playstation 1, the SCPH-1001 version. Its a revelation in music. Flat out incredible and its got me really excited about building more amps. Not about more speakers though because I love the sound of the ANs and they change so much with different equipment attached that I think my preference will be to try different preamps and amps with them. I think the PS1, ugly as it is, is going to stay. Weird, I know.
Anyway, back to your questions. Probably 10x12 is not optimal and I have not tried the 8" or 10", but the distance between my speakers and between my speakers and me seems similar to what you would have set up. The difference is that you have a wall directly behind you beaming back sound for better or for worse. But, and I dont know this, does it really matter in that situation if the driver is 8" or 12"? The SPL is identical on the ANs from what I recall so we are really looking at a difference in bass and I dont think that wall behind you is going to care how big the speaker is.
Remember, 30 day return policy so you can build the simple box and try it. Plus David Dicks recommends the use of the 2.8 Series I (39T x 14.5W x 12D) enclosure with all sizes of AN, so you could try either size and then trade to the other if you thought you needed bigger or smaller with easy modifications to the front of the enclosure.
edit: I should qualify that 45 grand statement. I have only heard ONE 45 grand system. I listen to alot of friends systems and family systems and am always intrigued by their new components. I am no reviewer. There maybe be dozens of 10grand systems that sound better, but what I do know for sure is that this is something extraordinary and I am loving it. I can without reservation recommend the ANs and I would recommend using them with a chipamp as of right now. I am building two other amps and have not yet tried, obviously, them with the ANs. So I might later say that the LM3886 sounded fantastic but that the Pass F5 is a perfect match. Who knows, but this system is at this time the second best I have heard. Ever.
Uriah
I do know this, and I dont doubt it at all, if you build 12" ANs and pair them with the right amp its really gonna floor you how good they sound.
I am doing everything on the cheap at every opportunity and oddly its working into the best sounding system I have ever heard (except one 45 grand system back in 1987). I use an LM3886 chip amp with a playstation 1, the SCPH-1001 version. Its a revelation in music. Flat out incredible and its got me really excited about building more amps. Not about more speakers though because I love the sound of the ANs and they change so much with different equipment attached that I think my preference will be to try different preamps and amps with them. I think the PS1, ugly as it is, is going to stay. Weird, I know.
Anyway, back to your questions. Probably 10x12 is not optimal and I have not tried the 8" or 10", but the distance between my speakers and between my speakers and me seems similar to what you would have set up. The difference is that you have a wall directly behind you beaming back sound for better or for worse. But, and I dont know this, does it really matter in that situation if the driver is 8" or 12"? The SPL is identical on the ANs from what I recall so we are really looking at a difference in bass and I dont think that wall behind you is going to care how big the speaker is.
Remember, 30 day return policy so you can build the simple box and try it. Plus David Dicks recommends the use of the 2.8 Series I (39T x 14.5W x 12D) enclosure with all sizes of AN, so you could try either size and then trade to the other if you thought you needed bigger or smaller with easy modifications to the front of the enclosure.
edit: I should qualify that 45 grand statement. I have only heard ONE 45 grand system. I listen to alot of friends systems and family systems and am always intrigued by their new components. I am no reviewer. There maybe be dozens of 10grand systems that sound better, but what I do know for sure is that this is something extraordinary and I am loving it. I can without reservation recommend the ANs and I would recommend using them with a chipamp as of right now. I am building two other amps and have not yet tried, obviously, them with the ANs. So I might later say that the LM3886 sounded fantastic but that the Pass F5 is a perfect match. Who knows, but this system is at this time the second best I have heard. Ever.
Uriah
I would say they are both good choices. I have some Audio Nirvana. The amp is a big part of these full range, The chip amp will not sound as good as the tube amp. I tried 4 or 5 different amps and ended up with a F3/ZV9 with 1.5 Meg for the feedback. I also tried a LM3875, Krell Clone and an F1. The set up with the ZV9 is one of the best I have heard.
MikeJe,
Do you have your amps already? If not you may want to build an F5. This is a SUPER easy amp to build. I think MikeW would concur. Nelson Pass designed it and he hasnt flat out said it yet, but I think he designed it for full rangers. He is doing a paper on full rangers and CCS amps. It might be a great match for you. He also just came out with the B1 buffer preamp which I believe is to go with amps such as the F5. And it is equally easy to build. The most expensive part is the heatsink, then the toroid. About 100-130 dollars for both put together. I think my parts ran me about $13 for the amp and then the power supply minus the toroid maybe $32. Then interconnects/plug/fuse. So the amp total maybe would run you $170 tops without enclosure and the pre is way way way cheaper. Back down in the 20-30 range sans enclosure.
I can agree and disagree with MikeW on his statement about the tube vs chip with the ANs. If I could get 25wpc out of my tube probably I would agree with him. The Chip Amp is pretty authoritative with these speakers and really controls them well. For me its necessary to use it vs my tube, which I love dearly. 8wpc with not a lot of bass is great for a lot of music, but I really like rock and roll so I kind of need the punch. When I build the B1 it will be nice since it will be easier to switch between sources and amps.
Uriah
Do you have your amps already? If not you may want to build an F5. This is a SUPER easy amp to build. I think MikeW would concur. Nelson Pass designed it and he hasnt flat out said it yet, but I think he designed it for full rangers. He is doing a paper on full rangers and CCS amps. It might be a great match for you. He also just came out with the B1 buffer preamp which I believe is to go with amps such as the F5. And it is equally easy to build. The most expensive part is the heatsink, then the toroid. About 100-130 dollars for both put together. I think my parts ran me about $13 for the amp and then the power supply minus the toroid maybe $32. Then interconnects/plug/fuse. So the amp total maybe would run you $170 tops without enclosure and the pre is way way way cheaper. Back down in the 20-30 range sans enclosure.
I can agree and disagree with MikeW on his statement about the tube vs chip with the ANs. If I could get 25wpc out of my tube probably I would agree with him. The Chip Amp is pretty authoritative with these speakers and really controls them well. For me its necessary to use it vs my tube, which I love dearly. 8wpc with not a lot of bass is great for a lot of music, but I really like rock and roll so I kind of need the punch. When I build the B1 it will be nice since it will be easier to switch between sources and amps.
Uriah
Uriah and MikeW,
I have an old Packard Bell stereo tube amp and, other than these speakers, my next project is a 3886 chip amp from Chipamp.com. I have a Velleman chip amp right now that has impressed me with its sound, especially for what it cost and its simplicity. I run a pair of Tangbands off of it, and I definitely like this set-up. I'm really looking forward to my next couple of projects too. This whole concept of DIY speakers and amps has really intrigued me. I have been bitten by the bug.
I don't know how much difference, quality-wise, there is between the F5 and the amps from Chipamp.com, but from what I've seen on these forums, I think they're both very good amps. It seems like a lot of knowledge and experience has gone into both of them. I also like the idea that the designers/authors/engineers of both of them follow the forums and interact with the subscribers. It seems as though they're artists as much as they are businessmen. I really like that about this arena.
I'll probably be starting my speakers and amp this fall. I'll be traveling for work over the next couple of months, so I have a fair amount of time to really chew on my options and make well informed decisions.
Thanks for your input about the ANs. I really appreciate straight-forward sharing.
Mike
I have an old Packard Bell stereo tube amp and, other than these speakers, my next project is a 3886 chip amp from Chipamp.com. I have a Velleman chip amp right now that has impressed me with its sound, especially for what it cost and its simplicity. I run a pair of Tangbands off of it, and I definitely like this set-up. I'm really looking forward to my next couple of projects too. This whole concept of DIY speakers and amps has really intrigued me. I have been bitten by the bug.
I don't know how much difference, quality-wise, there is between the F5 and the amps from Chipamp.com, but from what I've seen on these forums, I think they're both very good amps. It seems like a lot of knowledge and experience has gone into both of them. I also like the idea that the designers/authors/engineers of both of them follow the forums and interact with the subscribers. It seems as though they're artists as much as they are businessmen. I really like that about this arena.
I'll probably be starting my speakers and amp this fall. I'll be traveling for work over the next couple of months, so I have a fair amount of time to really chew on my options and make well informed decisions.
Thanks for your input about the ANs. I really appreciate straight-forward sharing.
Mike
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