And one last thing: It seems I _always_ leave some circular marks on the baffles when I route the cut-out. Make _sure_ your circle cutting jig is clean before putting it down on the baffle.
If you use a homemade jig like me then it is a good idea to lightly sand the bottom of the jig between changing radius.
If you use a homemade jig like me then it is a good idea to lightly sand the bottom of the jig between changing radius.
eyekode said:
Hi,
Better to not route all of the way through the baffle, but leave about 1/16" and finish this with a sharp knife and sand smooth. This is the safest way.
I must agree about the recess. It's much better to route this first, then the hole rather than use a rabbit bit.
BTW JLC7 nice looking job so far.
I think a common solution to the router guide scuffing is to apply contact paper to the veneer before making the cut.
zaph describes the process in his design "mantras"
http://www.zaphaudio.com/mantras.html
Regards,
David
zaph describes the process in his design "mantras"
http://www.zaphaudio.com/mantras.html
Regards,
David
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I think I'll cut the recesses with the jig before cutting the main hole out. I agree, any mistakes there will be forgivable while trying to the the hole outright and then rabbeting might not be forgiving.
Here are a few more pictures of the veneering process:
First apply glue to the back of the veneer and let dry. I bought a cheap foam roller and 97 cent plastic paint tray. If you want to save money, you could swap out the tray for a plastic plate, or that fancy china sitting in the cupboard that never gets used...
Find some way of cutting the veneer sheets roughly to the size you need them to be. Leave some excess to accommodate for Murphy's law.
I placed the seam from the veneer sheet in the middle of the side/top to keep things consistent. I couldn't use the veneer as efficiently this way as there was a bit more waste, but it was the only way to keep things neat looking.
I cut open an old t-shirt to make it easier to cover the veneer. Then proceed to heat the sheet until it sticks... only it's not sticking... or heating up...
Well I obviously know how to use a clothes iron. No really I do, the picture lies. Don't listen to it.
The flush trim bit leaves some fuzz when cutting against the grain. You can easily sand this off.
After sanding the fuzz off, you'll probably have a bit of paper/glue hanging out between the pieces of veneer. This comes off easily with sandpaper.
Be safe. Beee goooood. Ell-iii-otttt.
Fully veneered cabinets ready for hole cutting.
Test cabinets to the right will also get new holes and I'll be using them to test the drivers while I finish the veneered cabinets.
Here are a few more pictures of the veneering process:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
First apply glue to the back of the veneer and let dry. I bought a cheap foam roller and 97 cent plastic paint tray. If you want to save money, you could swap out the tray for a plastic plate, or that fancy china sitting in the cupboard that never gets used...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Find some way of cutting the veneer sheets roughly to the size you need them to be. Leave some excess to accommodate for Murphy's law.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I placed the seam from the veneer sheet in the middle of the side/top to keep things consistent. I couldn't use the veneer as efficiently this way as there was a bit more waste, but it was the only way to keep things neat looking.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I cut open an old t-shirt to make it easier to cover the veneer. Then proceed to heat the sheet until it sticks... only it's not sticking... or heating up...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Well I obviously know how to use a clothes iron. No really I do, the picture lies. Don't listen to it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The flush trim bit leaves some fuzz when cutting against the grain. You can easily sand this off.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
After sanding the fuzz off, you'll probably have a bit of paper/glue hanging out between the pieces of veneer. This comes off easily with sandpaper.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Be safe. Beee goooood. Ell-iii-otttt.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Fully veneered cabinets ready for hole cutting.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Test cabinets to the right will also get new holes and I'll be using them to test the drivers while I finish the veneered cabinets.
I'm no expert at wood finishing but I think that may be because of the finish used on your wood. Did you seal it with anything? poly? wax/oil?
If there was a problem with the application method you'd probably encounter the veneer lifting and peeling off entirely from the cabinet. It doesn't seem to me that the method of applying the veneer would have much affect on the appearance of the veneer after it has been used. That's what I think anyway.
Anyone care to enlighten us?
Well they say a picture is worth a thousand words. A video must be worth...
1000 words per frame * 30 frames per second = 30000 words per second and that doesn't include the words you get for sound.
I just uploaded two videos on youtube regarding veneering.
One shows me ironing on a loose sheet of veneer to the point where it's stuck on. You'll see me whack it a bit at the end. If you turn the volume up enough, you can hear the pop and crack sounds the veneer makes as it's heated but not yet stuck. When the noise stops the veneer is mostly on and you'll just have to go back and spot work the edges.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI2wWSZ8UW8
Here's one that shows you how veneer feels and handles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk7tEkWEd0I
1000 words per frame * 30 frames per second = 30000 words per second and that doesn't include the words you get for sound.
I just uploaded two videos on youtube regarding veneering.
One shows me ironing on a loose sheet of veneer to the point where it's stuck on. You'll see me whack it a bit at the end. If you turn the volume up enough, you can hear the pop and crack sounds the veneer makes as it's heated but not yet stuck. When the noise stops the veneer is mostly on and you'll just have to go back and spot work the edges.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI2wWSZ8UW8
Here's one that shows you how veneer feels and handles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk7tEkWEd0I
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Routed out the holes in one of the test cabinets using my jasper jig.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I cut 99% of the thickness of the mdf, sliced around with my blade, and then punched the piece in. Great stress relief. You know, punching innocent defenseless mdf circles. No guilt either.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Voila! Micket Mouse ears for my tweeter terminals. I just take a 1/2" straight bit on my router and plunge down. You can eyeball the location and mark it with a pencil. Works well enough.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
A little taste of what's to come.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The holes were all slightly small for some reason so the port wouldn't fit at first. The jig was probably slightly misaligned or maybe the surface was raised when I drilled the pilot hole causing everything to be tilted inwards. I used the 1/2" rabbeting bit and that fixed it up nicely.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Which brings me to my essential must have router bits to get the neatest router work. From left to right: 1" straight trim bit, 1" flush trim bit, 1/4" straight, 1/2" straight, and 1/2" adjustable rabbet. Optional bits in my opinion are 1/2"-3/4" roundover and a 45 degree chamfer.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
No I'm not that bad. I didn't make the mickey ears for the tweeter terminals yet.
Next up, drilling holes for the speaker terminals. No I lied again, it's time for lunch.
Seems like you guys are having fun with the picture quoting and whatnot.
I've finished the cabinets basically. All that's left to do is to apply finish to the veneer and attach the port and the drivers.
So a few questions for you guys:
1. What's the best way to attach the port to the speaker without screws? Would silicon adhesive work? Probably not so well? Should I screw it (haha there's a pun for you) and use screws anyway?
2. What finish should I use?
Those are some test samples I've done. The top left is waterbased gloss polyurethane. Below that is gloss polycrylic. To the right of those is "tung oil finish" with a polycrylic topcoat. And to the very right is just the "tung oil finish." I use quotes because it's not pure tung oil. Just something meant to imitate the look with other ingredients.
The polyurethane has an amber color to it. The polycrylic is pretty clear. I like how the tung oil finish brings out the flame pattern in the wood. It's akin to the wood on my violin.
Here are some pictures of the speaker terminals:
These are just the dayton insulated binding posts. They look great and don't cost that much.
Here's what it looks like with the port.
I used to a drill bit to make a hole for the thread of the binding post to go through. I then went back and used a countersinking bit to widen the initial opening of the hole (didn't have any larger drill bits). Then I used a metal file and cut notches for the keyed part of the binding post.
I've finished the cabinets basically. All that's left to do is to apply finish to the veneer and attach the port and the drivers.
So a few questions for you guys:
1. What's the best way to attach the port to the speaker without screws? Would silicon adhesive work? Probably not so well? Should I screw it (haha there's a pun for you) and use screws anyway?
2. What finish should I use?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Those are some test samples I've done. The top left is waterbased gloss polyurethane. Below that is gloss polycrylic. To the right of those is "tung oil finish" with a polycrylic topcoat. And to the very right is just the "tung oil finish." I use quotes because it's not pure tung oil. Just something meant to imitate the look with other ingredients.
The polyurethane has an amber color to it. The polycrylic is pretty clear. I like how the tung oil finish brings out the flame pattern in the wood. It's akin to the wood on my violin.
Here are some pictures of the speaker terminals:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
These are just the dayton insulated binding posts. They look great and don't cost that much.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here's what it looks like with the port.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I used to a drill bit to make a hole for the thread of the binding post to go through. I then went back and used a countersinking bit to widen the initial opening of the hole (didn't have any larger drill bits). Then I used a metal file and cut notches for the keyed part of the binding post.
I've always liked (and mentioned it in other threads) the linseed oil + paste wax look.
it brings out depth but keeps the wood looking like wood.
http://www.thosmoser.com/inc/scripts/file.php?file_id=8258
has details.
it brings out depth but keeps the wood looking like wood.
http://www.thosmoser.com/inc/scripts/file.php?file_id=8258
has details.
I wanted to try a pure oil based finish like linseed, tung, etc. but I didn't like the idea of the speaker not being 'finished' in the sense that the oil/wax doesn't completely cure. I know you can rebuff and easily repair the finish but I don't think that's something I have to worry about too much with these speakers.
That being said, I went with the 'tung oil finish' because I liked the look. It's a poly/oil/solvent blend that cures completely and gives a similar look to tung oil.
Such a pita trying to cut notches in the gasketing foam for the screws to go through. I can't think of any easier way though.
Went ahead and screwed the ports in. Some help you guys were. 
Loaded in a textbook crossover and checked the cabinet tuning. Just about 50Hz after stuffing with dampening material. Close enough for me.
Next will be crossover work. I'll probably make a new thread for that. I know the general idea of how to go about doing it the proper way but I'll need guidance. Stay tuned.
That being said, I went with the 'tung oil finish' because I liked the look. It's a poly/oil/solvent blend that cures completely and gives a similar look to tung oil.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Such a pita trying to cut notches in the gasketing foam for the screws to go through. I can't think of any easier way though.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Went ahead and screwed the ports in. Some help you guys were.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Loaded in a textbook crossover and checked the cabinet tuning. Just about 50Hz after stuffing with dampening material. Close enough for me.
Next will be crossover work. I'll probably make a new thread for that. I know the general idea of how to go about doing it the proper way but I'll need guidance. Stay tuned.
So today I got my feet wet making measurements of the drivers in the cabinets.
Stuffing a speaker is noticeably easier (and cleaner) than stuffing say, a turkey.
To make things a little easier I made jumper cables to hook the drivers directly to the amplifier from inside the cabinet.
Here is my crazy first time measuring setup. Yes that's a camera tripod. Yes I velcro'd the microphone on. Yes I used one of my Timewindow 3s as a speaker stand. So I lose 5 points for being cheap. But I gain 10 points for having spent 0 additional dollars. That's what you get for having common cents. Ouch. Ok I'll stop.
The stereo output of the soundcard goes to the amplifier while the microphone goes into the mixer/preamp, and then into the line-in of the soundcard.
My sound card happens to be in my computer.
Here's the sound card in question. The Audigy 2 ZS. Same thing Zaph uses for his SE work minus the front connection panel. Now it might look like I"m showing it off but...
it sucks for recording.
Now it might be because I don't have the front panel with additional inputs, but I find it retarded that you can't use the line-in input of the sound card to record without having it played back to you (monitoring) at the same time. There's an option to turn off the monitoring, but it only goes into effect when you're actually recording/taking a measurement. The rest of the time it plays back and the result is annoying feedback all the time every time.
Now I normally wouldn't use my desktop for measurements but my laptop was sent out to be repaired so it was the only thing available. But that also means I can use the onboard sound processor built into the motherboard. All I have to do is attach this thing:
Believe it or not, this thing worked better for recording. Now I can't say whether the measurements were as accurate as they could be, but it sure beat the annoying microphone feedback that threatened to blow my tweeter.
From this point on, I'll be begging you guys for help with taking measurements and designing the crossovers. So now's the time for you to be speaking up. I might save that for a seperate thread though.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Stuffing a speaker is noticeably easier (and cleaner) than stuffing say, a turkey.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
To make things a little easier I made jumper cables to hook the drivers directly to the amplifier from inside the cabinet.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here is my crazy first time measuring setup. Yes that's a camera tripod. Yes I velcro'd the microphone on. Yes I used one of my Timewindow 3s as a speaker stand. So I lose 5 points for being cheap. But I gain 10 points for having spent 0 additional dollars. That's what you get for having common cents. Ouch. Ok I'll stop.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The stereo output of the soundcard goes to the amplifier while the microphone goes into the mixer/preamp, and then into the line-in of the soundcard.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
My sound card happens to be in my computer.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here's the sound card in question. The Audigy 2 ZS. Same thing Zaph uses for his SE work minus the front connection panel. Now it might look like I"m showing it off but...
it sucks for recording.
Now it might be because I don't have the front panel with additional inputs, but I find it retarded that you can't use the line-in input of the sound card to record without having it played back to you (monitoring) at the same time. There's an option to turn off the monitoring, but it only goes into effect when you're actually recording/taking a measurement. The rest of the time it plays back and the result is annoying feedback all the time every time.
Now I normally wouldn't use my desktop for measurements but my laptop was sent out to be repaired so it was the only thing available. But that also means I can use the onboard sound processor built into the motherboard. All I have to do is attach this thing:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Believe it or not, this thing worked better for recording. Now I can't say whether the measurements were as accurate as they could be, but it sure beat the annoying microphone feedback that threatened to blow my tweeter.
From this point on, I'll be begging you guys for help with taking measurements and designing the crossovers. So now's the time for you to be speaking up. I might save that for a seperate thread though.
After a brief break in this thread -
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=124691 - the crossovers are finally done.
I have to thank salas for sticking around and helping me over 478 posts. I think we're both crazy.
The details of the final crossover design begin at post #426 in that thread. It's followed by actual in room far-field measurements of the prototype crossover. That threat covers all the problems I had as well as the thought that went into measuring the drivers, designing crossovers, and then simulating them.
The end result is it sounds great. Very smooth and lots of bass for a speaker of this size. You can also see that they have great off axis response in the measurements too.
First step for building the crossover was making the board to mount them on. I used a sheet of garolite from mcmaster-carr and cut it into 3x5 sheets using a dremel tool.
Then I drilled holes for mounting the components with zip ties. I used a smaller bit to make holes for the wires.
Here they are with all the holes drilled.
I used perfboard for the prototype crossover. The garolite (pcb board material) is a lot more durable.
Keep the tip and surfaces clean for reliable solder joints. A cheap radioshack iron works well too.
Everything has been mounted at this point. All that's left is to terminate the wires.
Here's the completed crossover...
...and both of them together.
Here's what it looks like in the cabinet...
...and from the outside.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=124691 - the crossovers are finally done.
I have to thank salas for sticking around and helping me over 478 posts.
I think we're both crazy. The details of the final crossover design begin at post #426 in that thread. It's followed by actual in room far-field measurements of the prototype crossover. That threat covers all the problems I had as well as the thought that went into measuring the drivers, designing crossovers, and then simulating them.
The end result is it sounds great. Very smooth and lots of bass for a speaker of this size. You can also see that they have great off axis response in the measurements too.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
First step for building the crossover was making the board to mount them on. I used a sheet of garolite from mcmaster-carr and cut it into 3x5 sheets using a dremel tool.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Then I drilled holes for mounting the components with zip ties. I used a smaller bit to make holes for the wires.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here they are with all the holes drilled.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I used perfboard for the prototype crossover. The garolite (pcb board material) is a lot more durable.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Keep the tip and surfaces clean for reliable solder joints. A cheap radioshack iron works well too.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Everything has been mounted at this point. All that's left is to terminate the wires.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here's the completed crossover...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
...and both of them together.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here's what it looks like in the cabinet...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
...and from the outside.
I aimed for a 3k crossover point with symmetric LR2 slopes. The P17 is a very capable woofer and a 3k crossover point is no problem for it. Even at that high a crossover point it still maintains good off axis response. 3k also helps alleviate any resonance issues with the XT25 tweeter and a shallow LR2 slope. There is also some baffle step compensation in the form of an over-sized inductor in the LP.
I used actual in room far-field measurements of the drivers for the crossover design. I think this allows me to better model what I'll hear from the speaker in the actual room it will be used in. That's why the plots seem a bit ragged.
I started with a stock 3k LR2 crossover and then tweaked it to reach a 3k LR2 goal. I also played with the values and crossover point to get good phase tracking at the crossover.
This is the modeled response.
This is the modeled null with the driver polarity reversed.
Here is the circuit diagram for the crossover.
Salas suggested these real-world values to allow the inductors I already had to be re-used. The 2.0mH inductor I bought for the final crossover was a typical 18AWG air-core inductor with a .7 ohm DC resistance. The .1mH was also 18AWG and had a .12 ohm DC resistance. If you're looking to reproduce this crossover, you should make sure the DC resistances are the same.
Once I got the parts, I put the crossover together with alligator clips and this is the measured response of the speaker with the crossover.
The red plot is the measured null for the crossover when the driver polarity is reversed.
These are quick off-axis responses of the speaker from around 0 to 45 degrees.
Remember these are all far-field non-gated non-spliced measurements. Considering that they sound pretty good.
I used actual in room far-field measurements of the drivers for the crossover design. I think this allows me to better model what I'll hear from the speaker in the actual room it will be used in. That's why the plots seem a bit ragged.
I started with a stock 3k LR2 crossover and then tweaked it to reach a 3k LR2 goal. I also played with the values and crossover point to get good phase tracking at the crossover.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This is the modeled response.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This is the modeled null with the driver polarity reversed.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here is the circuit diagram for the crossover.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Salas suggested these real-world values to allow the inductors I already had to be re-used. The 2.0mH inductor I bought for the final crossover was a typical 18AWG air-core inductor with a .7 ohm DC resistance. The .1mH was also 18AWG and had a .12 ohm DC resistance. If you're looking to reproduce this crossover, you should make sure the DC resistances are the same.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Once I got the parts, I put the crossover together with alligator clips and this is the measured response of the speaker with the crossover.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The red plot is the measured null for the crossover when the driver polarity is reversed.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
These are quick off-axis responses of the speaker from around 0 to 45 degrees.
Remember these are all far-field non-gated non-spliced measurements. Considering that they sound pretty good.
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